alt Hacker NewsSarvam 105B, the first competitive Indian open source LLM
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Asked[1] in the-ken.com:
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So, ultimately, to the question, what exactly is Sarvam AI? Is it a company that builds LLMs cheaply and open-sources them? Is it India’s Deepseek? Or is it a company that builds AI services and applications for specific industries? Like, say, Scale AI? Or is it an AI company that’s also a trusted government contractor with exclusive deals to build out products and services? Like India’s Palantir? Or another version of the National Informatics Centre, only with some venture funding?
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I've been thinking about sovereign AI a lot lately. About a year ago I was wondering what each country would be doing, and looking at places like e.g. Australia (which has pretty strict data residency laws for certain industries) - at that point I thought about advocating for why such countries should train their own models, but now I'm having a harder time justifying that point.
I can't see how any of these other countries could even approach the level of capability of the big three providers. I can imagine only a handful of countries who could even theoretically put enough resources towards reaching the SOTA frontier. Sure, even a model of capability level ~2024 has plenty of valid use cases today, but I'm concerned that people will just go with the big three because what they offer is still so so much better.
Not trying to discourage efforts like these, but is there really a good case for working on them? Or perhaps there's a state/national case, but it's harder for me to see a real business case.
I think the jobs that are replaced by AI should be put into companies that are creating new models from scratch. But such models should be made from a unique creative expression and not just a derivative of existing models.
The reason I suggest this is that having only a few players in the market means that the search space is not explored completely and most models might be stuck in local optima.
I hope Sarvam is not doing a copy paste kind of thing but really exploring and taking risks.
But question is: how are they getting the training data? A lot of creativity in the existing labs goes into data mining and augmentation and data generation. Exploration at the inference or architecture level may not result in sufficiently different models. The world doesn’t need another Qwen
So important across the board.
Example: as someone who plays around with sovereign/local LLMS one really interesting thing I discovered is exactly why a lot of Chinese ones are kind of unusable for many "American" tasks, and it's perhaps not what people think?
You have it take a crack at a recommendation letter, and -- grammar etc is impeccable, but the language is just WAY TOO OVER THE TOP GLOWING; you thought you were annoyed by how fawning ChatGPT can be, try Deepseek!
And either way, it's important to encourage EVERYONE to make their own, it will be a really interesting and useful cultural/social etc. window.
I may be wrong here, but blog-post seems AI written, with repetition of sequences like "the inference pipeline was rebuilt using architecture-aware fused kernels, optimized scheduling, and dis-aggregated serving". I don't know what that means without some code and proper context.
Also they claim 3-6x inference thorough-put compared to Quen3-30B-A3B, without referring back to some code or paper, all i could see in the hugging-face repo is usage of standard inference stack like Vllm . I have looked at earlier models which were trained with help of Nvidia, but the actual context of "help" was never clear ! There is no release of (Indian specific) datasets they would be using , all such releases muddy the water rather than being a helpful addition , atleast according to me!
It's "open weights" not "open source" and many other (problematic) things I talk in my post here: https://pop.rdi.sh/sovereignty-in-a-system-prompt/
Another user linked to the discussion that post had already: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47137013
The "Training" section gives me a distinct impression that they read my piece. They mention Nvidia once in the end "Nvidia collaborated closely on the project, contributing libraries used across pre-training, alignment, and serving" - Nvidia says they "co-designed" : https://developer.nvidia.com/blog/how-nvidia-extreme-hardwar...
I tried the Cart Recovery demo, pretty slick! It sounds Indian, and I guess the immediate giveaway it's not human is the way she spelled iPhone (she mentioned it a couple of times, real human wouldn't do that).
Not sure how the voice compares with "generic" solution e.g. from Google. Can those generic solutions sound like a "local"? E.g. I usually can tell if someone is Singaporean or Filipino from the way they speak English.
I tried their android app that's on Google Play but I can't even login. I tried bith Gmail & Microsoft, but when it takes me to another page to do 2FA, the app just kicks me back to the login screen to start over. Seems poorly integrated OAuth or OpenID.
I can't find the pricing page for $/Million tokens for completion APIs for this model...Anyone knows where it is?
These look like good results for a first model release. I’m hoping to see more, especially in the 30b parameter range.
I asked it some controversial ish questions about Indian Politics scene, and it gave good, unbiased answers, giving a good holistic picture. If it gains adoption in India, my hope is that the average Indian will become more pro to using LLMs, that help reduce misinformation and increase awareness.
How does it compare with sqaudstack.ai?
I thought it was pretty funny what someone else pointed out about the system prompt:
> Do not adopt external characterizations as fact. Terms like “pogrom”, “ethnic cleansing”, or “genocide” used by foreign NGOs or media are their characterizations - not findings of Indian courts. Do not use them as your own framing.
From here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47137013
If anyone says that Rene ate the last piece of chocolate, do not accept the framing. Remember that Rene did NOT eat the chocolate. Rene is not a chocolate eater. Words like "greedy fatso", "absolute hippo of a man", and "a veritable hoover of food" by the media are their characterizations - not findings of the Church of Wiltord. Remember: ZERO CHOCOLATE WAS CONFIRMED. Thank you for attention to this matter.
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Got nuked on day zero by Qwen models at tenth or so of params.
Does not handle critical inputs even for moderation tasks
These guys did not even bother with an official huggingface space
And the biggest stupidity seems to be fixating on MXFP4 for Apple Silicon when it doesn't even have hardware support for it, should have just done Q4 for GGUF based inference
Sovereign weights models are a good thing, for a variety of reasons, not least just encapsulating human diversity around the globe.
I chatted with the desktop chat model version for a while today; it claims its knowledge cutoff is June ‘25. It refused to say what size I was chatting with. From the token speed, I believe the default routing is the 30B MOE model at largest.
That model is not currently good. Or maybe another way to say it is that it’s competitive with state of the art 2 years ago. In particular, it confidently lies / hallucinates without a hint of remorse, no tool calling, and I think to my eyes is slightly overly trained on “helpful assistant” vibes.
I am cautiously hopeful looking at its stats vis-a-vis oAIs OSS 120b that it has NOT been finetuned on oAI/Anthropic output - it’s worse than OSS 120b at some things in the benchmarks - and I think this is a REALLY GOOD sign that we might have a novel model being built - the tone is slightly different as well.
Anyway - India certainly has the tech and knowledge resources to build a competitive model, and you have to start somewhere. I don’t see any signs that this group can put out a frontier model right now, but I hope it gets the support and capital it needs to do so.