alt Hacker NewsAn old photo of a large BBS (2022)
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Nobody mentioned the smell of that time yet.
An acrid air, stingy for the first few seconds but then somewhat enjoyable because of the ozon. The smell of stale coffee and cigarettes lingering. The smell of wood for cabinets (instead of pressed and glued materials).
This is how I remember the university where my father worked (more coffee), the teachers room from my moms school (more cigarettes) and the IT department of the university (very strong in the 'IT-smell', but also hard on coffee and sigarettes).
You don't find those smells like that anymore. I'll leave the description of the sound in this room to the next one. This was a loud room!
Higher resolution photo https://web.archive.org/web/20230531042903im_/https://static...
FROM https://x.com/ScottApogee/status/1593729387106512896?sort_re...
Top comment about this photo is ( and the poster) Scott Miller - Apogee/3D Realms Founder @ScottApogee BBS's (bulletin board systems) were the backbone of the online world before the Internet came along in 1995. Apogee teamed up with Dan Linton's BBS, called Software Creations, and we poured $200k+ into it to grow it to nearly 140 call-in nodes with a T3 (high bandwidth) line.
Those were the days. I still believe nothing replaces the camraderie of the small, local BBSs. The large ones were good too, but these tended to resemble the modern Internet forums a bit more.
I miss BBSs and that's why I featured them in the story of my sci-fi game! If you are interested: https://store.steampowered.com/app/3040110/Outsider/
I am surprised by the assumption that each box could only handle one modem. I seem to remember that some DOS BBS packages could handle multiple modems/users concurrently and only needed multitasking operating systems for “door” programs. Am I misremembering?
From the follow-up article: https://rachelbythebay.com/w/2022/01/27/scale/
"If you are sticking with the 2022 equivalent of MS-DOS and machines that do exactly one thing at a time, then yeah, you are going to have a whole fleet of systems all sitting there busy-waiting on something stupid."
"Don't recreate the basement full of PCs when the problem can actually be solved with a single box sitting in a cabinet somewhere."
If they really were just PCs to act as a modem-to-network bridge, this seems to be remarkably cost-inefficient. I remember around 1997 helping the university chuck out a few serial line concentrators (no idea what they were actually called), each of which had 32x RS-232 ports that worked up to 19200 baud and a 10Mbit coax network connection at the back. The on-board computer (wouldn't be at all surprised if it was much more than a 68000 or two) interfaced with all the serial ports and translated it to telnet on a remote machine. You could also send it an escape code and then via a primitive command line connect to any arbitrary IP address and port over TCP. I remember in my student days (so maybe 1995) using finger and SMTP directly from these text terminals without actually logging on.
No idea when these became available, but we were chucking them out in 1997 or 1998 as we were upgrading the labs of text terminals to PCs, so they probably at least a decade old by then.
This makes me wish I took photos of Diversi-Dial (aka D-Dial) setups, which somehow impressed me more due to how much they accomplished with much much less hardware.
They were able to set up a 7 x 300baud modems in real-time chat system on an Apple ][ . The original marketing called it a CB (Citizens Band) Simulator. They were able to run up to 1200baud, but I never saw one of those functioning.
As if 7 people chatting through a single 6502 wasn't impressive enough, many of them dedicated one or two of their lines to interlinking with other D-dials.
Talk about an esoteric memory.
- https://www.ddial.com/ - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diversi-Dial
Not mentioned but very important was the number of inbound telco lines installed. Equally important was making sure the local phone company properly configured the hunt group for those lines. Without a properly functioning hunt group it would be very difficult to optimize the allocation of telco connections to all the users connecting and disconnecting.
Also, it was unusual at the time for a local phone company to receive a request for 25 lines (or more) to be installed in the basement of a residence. They would generally push back thinking you were running a bookie operation or some such.
Here's a memory: My old Fido-net system, running on a 386, with a single phone line. Connected to a Microcom 34Kbaud modem.
Everything is chugging on, and connects to another system further up the chain at 2 am for network traffic. Except he's on a new phone number, on a new exchange in the state. A 914 exchange. Only the phone company's updates haven't reached all of the telephone switching centers in the sate. Somehow, it was re-routed to 911 services, and I had the police and fire department at the front door responding to a 'silent call'. They went away unhappy. I wasn't very happy either.
Anyone else still remember old BBS phone numbers? I’ve got several stuck in my head from 40 odd years ago, but I can barely remember my kids’ cell numbers.
Ahh BBS's: where I learned the difference between a local call and a "local toll call" (parents were not happy)
I worked for Exec PC internet which evolved from the BBS which was the largest in the US afaik. It ran on somewhat custom PCs where there were I think four nodes per board on bread racks. No cases. Custom software. That BBS was over 250 lines at one point. I remember hearing stories the room with the modems, a lot of Couriers near the end, was so hot they would have to replace dead ones every week.
Office chair technology also has really advanced since then (looking at the chair on the picture, which is commonly seen near computers in photos of this era)
"Imagine how much power those things used. Every watt of heat they dumped into the room then had to be pumped out, so that means a corresponding amount of air conditioning to take it outside. That seems like a whole mess of juice to me. "
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A 286 used around 3 Watts of power, while a current generation PC PCU uses upwards of 150 W. That's a factor of fifty. That's not even factoring in the GPU's, which these computers would have lacked.
This room was neither quiet or cool. While the CPU's were comparatively low power back then, all the other stuff (modems in particular) would have put out a lot more heat than their modern equivalents. However, this room could realistically have been in somebody's residential home basement without any exotic A/C measures. Maybe a wall-mounted unit or two. It would not have pumped out nearly as much heat or consumed as much power as modern gear of equivalent volume.
> It's possible they managed to do some rudimentary multitasking with DESQview (or worse...) and so supported two whole users with each box. Does that mean they had to be at least 386s to do protected mode? Or was it virtual 8086 mode? I (fortunately) have forgotten the finer points of how that stuff used to work. I DO remember how damn crashy a box became when you ran it "under DV". Constant system freezes. Yep.
I don't recall DESQview to be all that crashy. I was aware of a number multi-line BBSes that used it (just in the 416). Some BBS software called out its use specifically:
* https://www.synchro.net/docs/multnode_config.html
* http://software.bbsdocumentary.com/IBM/DOS/OMEGA/
Also, a comment from someone whose uncle co-founded the company Quarterdeck:
* https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29396561#unv_29400530
Also, also, if anyone wants to simulate the old-school DESQview experience, perhaps try out "twin":
* https://opensource.com/article/20/1/multiple-consoles-twin
Awesome.
Side note: virtual 8086 mode was protected mode, or rather, implied protected mode. A task could run in virtual 8086 mode where to the task it was (mostly) looking like it was running in real mode, when in actuality the kernel was running in full protected mode.
Note that the "kernel" was never DOS. It could often actually be a so called "memory manager", like EMM386, and the actual DOS OS (the entire thing, including apps, not just the DOS "kernel") would run as a sole vm86 task, without any other tasks. The memory manager was then serving DOS with a lot of the 386 32 bit goodness through a straw, effectively.
It's very bizarre from today's (or even back then's) OS standards, and evolved that way because compatibility.
I used to dial into that BBS... long distance. It had a huge library of shareware.
https://groups.google.com/g/bit.listserv.games-l/c/1tg85kGBH...
>> So then, when you see this picture (and remember, it might only be showing half of the whole setup), do you think "wow, cool, they got to wrangle all of that", or do you think "OMG they had to wrangle all of that"? It's an important distinction to make, and I think someone's gut reaction to this amount of hardware in one place might influence how they approach building new systems.
It's a very good point. Like, I have some stuff that eats up RAM like a, a very hungry thing, so I went online to see if I could buy some old server blade with a couple TB of RAM from ebay. I found a few, refurbished, not in a horrible condition, not prohibitively expensive (I'm not currently funded, as such) and I remember this distinct feeling, like a frisson of excitement at the thought of having access to ~20 times more POWER than I usually have...
... and then I cooled down, didn't buy a server, and instead rented one with "only" 256 GB RAM until I could fix my stuff so that it now runs with up to 8GB on my laptop. Still expensive, but we're getting there.
Morale of the story: don't know. I prefer to find ways to make software go faster than rely on hardware? I get the feeling I'm very alone on this, seeing as everyone's talking about putting nuclear-powered server farms in space and whatnot.
> do you think "wow, cool, they got to wrangle all of that", or do you think "OMG they had to wrangle all of that"?
I touch on similar point of view discussing digital audio work I do for fun. I use CSound, which I've heard described as "assembly language for audio", and I think that's accurate.
Anyway, when I first, FIRST started, and got a tiny bit familiar, I thought "Wow, I can do anything!" but quickly realized I was also responsible for everything. No free lunch.
I remember thinking that I would reach absolute peak-coolkid if I could start and run a BBS. I even installed WWIV and DesqView to fuel the fantasy and prepare. But my parents didn't understand technology and couldn't grasp why I wanted to hook up (and pay for) a second phone line for the house. So, unfortunately I would remain a mere luser until I went off to University where the Internet was just getting popular and 10-Base-T ethernet drops to the dorm rooms were standard, and I very quickly forgot all about BBSing.
The OS that was running on these is irrelevant, the important part is the BBS software.
And these usually ran quite a few lines per box, sometimes they would use external racks of modems, but I'm not seeing that here so maybe these were using internal modem cards, so maybe 6 per box, but if they were using external modems it could easily be 12 or more, with the PC cards hosting multiple serial ports, 4, 6 or even 8 per card.
Typically a card would have a single large connector at the back and then a pigtail with a DB9 or DB25 (yes, I know) for every modem.
I can recall people being very impressed at unix systems being able to handle many clients, and being personally confused at the idea of a computer only being able to handle a single user.
Brings back memories ...
Boardwatch was the magazine for BBS ( I do not know of any others)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boardwatch
Some all? on internet archive https://archive.org/details/boardwatchmagazine I recall buyingthe magazine back inthe day...
There is so much speculation in the OP that I am not even sure if the title is correct.
So are those just regular bookcases that the computers are stacked on?
If the site is not responding, can always try the way back machine.
https://web.archive.org/web/20220207120422/https://rachelbyt...
I remember dialing up to a BBS in the area in 1990 that had 4 phone lines. That was amazing at the time when most BBS only had 1 line.
But I do remember downloading text files FILE.IDZ about other BBS, and reading some magazines that mentioned other BBS systems that had 32 and more phone lines but you had to pay. That seemed like it was just on another level in another part of the world that seemed like fantasy compared to the area I was in.
It's possible they managed to do some rudimentary multitasking with DESQview (or worse...)
There were even hypervisors available, such as VM/386:
My roommate circa 1989 had a bunch of Apple II’s with multiple modem cards per machine to run a bulletin board. Not sure why an Apple II could support multiple users logging into the BBS via multiple modems but DOS based machines could not.
Apogee was somehow part of the party < https://x.com/ScottApogee/status/1593729387106512896>
I think the standard BBS modem for most BBS’s was the US Robotics brand if I’m not mistaken.
My first modem was a Supra 2400 baud, then thinking about all the speed I would have with my new 56.6. My first hard drive was a 20 meg, new it was $320. 20 megs $320 kids, imagine that.
That was for my wonderful brand new Amiga 500. Those were the days.
Would love a technical explanation of how all that stuff worked by someone who did that kind of stuff in those days. In the old days I personally never saw anything bigger than a four line BBS. But I remember reading about that one in shareware README.TXT files
Wouldn't mind hearing war stories from the cdrom.com guys as well.
Does BBS still have a usage nowadays? I feel HN is not too different -- and actually offer less than a BBS -- back then there are a lot of goods on a large BBS. And it's easier to mix a pic with text, but I could be wrong.
Also thinking it's a lot environmental easier to host a BBS than a Discord server.
How did they keep the room cool? that equipment must not be shown... Maybe fans to move the hot air ....
Looks like the shelves were custom-built for those machines. I wonder what the monitors were hooked up to, or if they were just spares.
My first thought was that this was built someone who clearly cared about the system they were running.
And the follow-up article: https://rachelbythebay.com/w/2022/01/27/scale/
I miss those times
For anyone that enjoyed door games, Grok will simulate L.O.R.D. for you.
You could probably replace all those machines with a Mac Mini or even a Raspberry Pi.
Would these machines have been networked with CAT-3? Daisy chained phone cords?
For a similar nostalgic hit:
Related:
Ask HN: Remember Fidonet?
I remember trying to set up a bbs on my pc in the 80s and I didn’t have a separate phone line so I just put it on while I slept. Then people started calling and annoying my parents with daytime modem calls, because I was like 10 and I didn’t think through any of this.
In the 90’s we had microsystems, in the 2020s we have microservices.
Wow, I used to dial into BBS for around 3-4 years. good time!!
Nice computer “racks”
So, a number of different BBS servers supported multiple incoming lines (effectively multitasking inside of the BBS server application itself, not by running multiple copies of the software on the same machine), typically up to 8 in one machine either using a special communications card that connected to a number of external modems or by stuffing internal modems into as many ISA slots as you can (typically up to 6 so you still had IO and video, 7 if you ran 'headless'.)
Some BBS servers also supported multiple instances by connecting to a master server, which supplied dynamic content such as chat, forum messages and e-mails or door game data to all of the other machines. In large markets a BBS having dozens of lines was not uncommon.
> So then, when you see this picture (and remember, it might only be showing half of the whole setup), do you think "wow, cool, they got to wrangle all of that", or do you think "OMG they had to wrangle all of that"? It's an important distinction to make, and I think someone's gut reaction to this amount of hardware in one place might influence how they approach building new systems.
Definitely in the "wow, cool, they got to wrangle all of that" camp!
I remember dialing up to this BBS quite a bit, and I also remember downloading tons of demos from other BBSs that originally came from SCBBS!
From my days... this is what an old photo of a "proper" BBS looked like https://beeline.org/beeline/?view=a29ed68f4f4d53 (note the wire wrapped custom modem controller) - the description is "Original Apple IIe with 11 modems and two 4-port homemade serial cards"
And to keep better time, https://beeline.org/beeline/?view=c0a8000daa11ca
It was later upgraded to a 486 https://beeline.org/beeline/?view=188870d0bbc894