alt Hacker NewsMacBook Neo and how the iPad should be
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Touchscreens suck for text manipulation. The keyboard and the mouse are the superior input devices for wrangling characters and words and lines and paragraphs.
The author wants using the iPad to “feel like a finger ballet, your hands swooping and swiping”, but also the author seems to care a lot about emails and Claude Code and writing. Those are fundamentally at odds, and it makes complete sense that they’re very happy with a MacBook Neo instead (but they could have just been using a MacBook Air the whole time).
The iPad is fantastic for, as the author points out, “reading the news and watching YouTube and playing games”, and it’s an amazing tool for digital artists and anyone who does lots of hand annotation work. So really overall a product that’s found its niche, and when I see grandpas and grandmas and students at my local cafe using their iPad their hands are effectively swooping and swiping in a finger ballet.
I think there’s just a kind of techie who desperately wishes they could do everything on an iPad, but really the machine meant for them is a lightweight MacBook (Neo or Air), and for some reason that induces some sort of frustration in them and they feel like things somehow shouldn’t be that way. I guess I get it, the iPad hardware is pretty slick. But yeah, your work makes you a MacBook person, not an iPad person, that’s just how it is. (Apple should make an 11” MacBook again though).
> iPad apps should be weird as hell, unlike anything you find on a desktop operating system […] The iPad should be a highly-focused touch playground. Weird as hell, one-of-a-kind apps
I don’t know what this obsession with “weird apps” is, but 99.9% of people don’t care about “weird apps” and so that’s not enough to justify a whole device category (and you can find weird apps on all platforms anyways).
My dream is having an “app” on ipadOS that switches out userland from ipadOS to macOS when launched. Let them be two silos, containers, VMs, whatever.
Only allow “Mac mode” if you have a keyboard and monitor attached. Hell, automatically “sleep” it if you undock. Make it unapologetically keyboard-and-mouse first.
One UI for keyboard/mouse. A second UI for touch. One device that can do it all. That’s the dream.
I feel like we’ve had a few ham fisted attempts over the years at this, and Apple could actually pull it off. I get that it probably won’t happen though.
I sign this essay. Apple has apparently multiple opposing goals for the iPadOS:
1. Make it powerful enough so that it can be sold as equivalent to macOS
2. Keep it locked like iOS, to be sold as secure alternative to computer for your parents and kids (which rules out all the workflow customization pros need)
3. Don’t make it powerful enough for people to stop buying Macs (Tim Cook’s biggest fear is of you not buying another slab of glass - no multiprofile for you, ever)
The intersection of these is an empty set.
I use my 2018 Pro as a great browser and YouTube machine, with zero intent to upgrade until the above situation changes. It’s useless for anything else, and even if I got M4 powerhouse, I wouldn’t be able to take it as a single machine for holiday for emergency Weathergraph hotfix or server debugging.
I remember the days of custom launchers on Android. Truly futuristic single-finger optimised interfaces that are long since dead.
My favourite was a “pie” launcher that would spawn wherever pressed in an anime/minority report futurism style. It was incredibly easy to use.
But, instead everyone settled on the rows or icons launchers and widgets. Very boring.
I feel like iPadOS could have tried to push the envelope a bit but they wanted mass market appeal, and nothing is simpler than pushing a big icon I guess. :shrug:
This person nails it.
The part about Procreate is really spot on. If you draw on the iPad, and I do, Procreate just dissolves under your fingers and pencil. It's like working with paper and pencil. Almost. And it has Undo. Tactile feedback would be nice, but I'm not sure what that means. Paper and pencil has great tactile feedback. Trying to describe it with words is an exercise in frustration. If you don't draw, or write with a pen, ever, then I'm at a loss to explain it.
But it's there nonetheless.
We've got a long way to go to really understand UI and UX. A long, long way.
Now, please excuse me while I go and tap dance about architecture for a bit...
The elephant in the room is something else.
iPhones need desktop mode. Your apps, your data. USB-C screen + Bluetooth keyboard/mouse. Running like iPadOS or even macOS.
While plenty about the iPad situation sucks, my biggest gripe is the discontinuation of the Smart Keyboard Folio. This was the one that only had a keyboard, no trackpad, but could fold all the way back, which the Magic Keyboard (with trackpad) cannot. The Smart Keyboard Folio was just the perfect form factor: there when you need it, discretely out of the way when you didn’t. And when you were using it, the iPad was perfectly balanced to sit on your lap even in cramped circumstances, which the Magic Keyboard is most definitely not.
Sure, get rid of the Magic Keyboard with its unnecessary trackpad. But bring back the Smart Keyboard Folio. It was a delight.
I kind of disagree. I always wished apple could copy Microsoft Surface Go and Surface Book.
I would still use macbook for most things but I did use my surface go more often for (deep) work than now my ipad pro (which is better for consumption).
Surface Go in app mode was not as good as ipad and many apps lacking but it shined if I had to to more work/research and I didn't have laptop with me.
I would just love to have something like even smaller size Macbook Neo where I can unplug screen and then would behave like iPad consumption device.
Right now I hate keeping everything synced in apple ecosystem so I usually even won't bother to use ipad while in train or plane.
I just want a notebook the size and weight of a 10" ipad pro that I can run desktop software on. The Macbook Neo is 12" and weighs 1.23kg which is light but not "forget you have it in your bag" light.
It's frustating knowing that the ipad _could_ run mac os but won't due to intentional market segmentation by Apple.
> No more keyboards or mouse support for iPads.
Pretty sure there are students at Uni using iPads with keyboard. It's smaller form factor than a laptop.
Hard disagree. The iPad is a fantastic mac replacement for many purposes. I use the iPad Pro w/ the “magic keyboard” case for working essentially whenever I’m not physically in home or office in similar ways that I do my Mac, for two really big reasons:
(1) The (11-inch) size is fantastic: you get enough screen real estate to see what you’re reading and writing, but it still fits into an arbitrarily small bag and is light enough that you can comfortably walk around all day with it. The death of the original tiny MacBook Air was a huge fail for apple
(2) CELLULAR CONNECTIVITY FOR GOD’S SAKE CELLULAR CONNECTIVITY. Yes, you can always hotspot your phone, however, that’s still not nearly so reliable as a device with its own connectivity, some providers still limit bandwidth there, plus the last thing I need is extra battery drain on my phone when I’m already stressed about it.
TBF, if Apple ever brought back the original MacBook Air with modern specs and with a cellular chip, I would just take gigantic buckets full of money and throw them in the general direction of Cupertino until I got one, like, instantly. And there are definitely still compromises—-as an academic, I’ve been meaning to just write a command line front end to zotero and fling it onto a digital ocean server or something, because its iPad app is so godawful. But on the whole, I still reach for my iPad much much much more than my MacBook, for those two killer features.
The part that makes ipadOS feels like a toy is Apple’s iron grip in “App Store only” app delivery. The thing has so much power, but to do anything useful, you gotta play by Apple’s rules. All that dream of quirky, useful, innovative ipadOS leveraging apps would show up if they relinquished that software control and let indie or otherwise apps get there without the Apple Tax both in money and rules.
Would the iPad still be that days long, cohesive device is another story.. it Apple cannot have their cake and eat it too.
Microsoft and PC makers have long shown how the iPad should be,with Surface and 2-1 devices, Apple naturally wants to rather sell two devices.
> encumbered only by increasingly slower animations or boneheaded notifications or apps stealing focus as they spin themselves up
> Instead, go into a three year period of major OS refactoring. Speed above all.
I cannot understand why a slow mac is acceptable at any level at all. The icons need a second to load in the applications drawer! Jobs would have thrown this thing across the room at the first MVP demo
Buried in here is the very nice idea of an AI dividend for CLI users - as we keep designing interfaces for LLMs directly, those interfaces are text-oriented, and afford us a look at a future with the command line being central.
I like that. My recent tools are mostly AI first, and therefore CLI first. I’ve been toying with adding JSON modes to them, and this is undeniably useful, but I think I’ll keep JSON under flags; it’s a way to prioritize human users as well.
I use an ipad pro with the keyboard/trackpad case daily.
I find the combo of keyboard, pointer, touch, and pencil interfaces very useful.
The touch interface is even useful sometimes when remoted in to a desktop.
The biggest thing wrong with ipads (and the reason I’ll probably never upgrade this old 2018 model) is the lack of macos.
This article makes me very, very strongly want Bryce 3D for iPad.
Everything about using that app was about trying to make you feel like you could reach out and touch the screen. Now you can. Its user interface was nonsenical at the time. Now a spherical marble is sensible. Tap an object, then tap and hold; use other hand to operate the three-axis arrow control bar that swells up out of the interface into easy to touch controls. When you let go, they pop with a little spray of tri-color paint and a few speckles get left on the user interface.
Seriously, we have done almost nothing with what’s possible because everything is either Word, Letterpress, Tabletop Simulator, or cross-platform port. Meanwhile there’s an engine in there powerful enough to run Bryce with realtime rendering, but everyone wants to emulate a sheet of paper rather than letting me do the most basic things.
We could have painting with a pen and controlling z-depth with a hand at the same time. Path snap to collision avoidance margins on a slider. Negative margins and a setting to define collision handling: do you materials simulate two oils colliding at their spline velocity? Do they intersperse and blend like translucent colored sand? How far after the intersection does the aftertint continue in the brush stream?
Instead, we have, courtesy of AI, U-turned the industry all the way back to text adventure games with sentient potatoes.
Sigh.
Can someone who personally knows John Ternus please send this essay to him? And can they do it immediately? (...and tell him to implement this business plan)
The only thing I’d push back on is the weird and wacky iPad apps - our brains and fingers need some consistency in UI, doesn’t mean it can be fun though!
It seems the author conflates "pro work" and "work with text". For many people it is true, for many others it is not.
I strongly disagree that the Neo is a small machine. I want the 12” MacBook back.
This makes me think of the interface for one handed touch screen typing that was used in the movie version of Ended’s game; it stuck with me as an example of a more touch friendly flexible input mechanism that really challenged how I thought about interfaces. Someone made an open source implementation of it but half the battle is getting these idioms to take root. I wish Apple would experiment more with novel touch interfaces in the way the article describes.
I think this touch-only idea would be more viable if we had far better haptic feedback from screens. All the fancy gestures and fluidic UI don't help when your only means of interaction is pushing against an unresponsive pane of glass. Maybe something better just isn't possible, but I'd love to see Apple push things forward in this area.
Add an iPad mini esque screen on the trackpad of a MacBook.
Trackpad of a 16 inch MacBook Pro is humongous anyways.
Add a touchscreen display to the trackpad, and give it iPad OS
Y'all look at as a paradigm shift. The rest of the world just wants to touch the screen when it makes sense.
We trained billions of humans to touch the screen.
> What does an LLM-first macOS look like?
Like a product I wouldn't touch with a bargepole.
Apple hardware reached its pinnacle with the 11-inch MacBook Air. I miss it terribly.
iPads could be great for elederly users. But the lack of remote support option caused me to switch my dad back to a MacBook.
No thank you to no windowing on ipad, I like having one app up for references and another for my drawing program :)
Am I the only person who likes the concept of "Sidebar" and using an iPad (often w/ an Apple Pencil) as a second display on a Mac?
Let me do that w/ a MacBook Neo and iPad Air pair which look as if they belong together and which fit nicely into a bag and afford me the option of taking only the iPad Air and Apple Pencil when I want to travel light, and maybe I'll come back to the fold (the last thing I bought from Apple was Mac OS X Public Beta, before that it was OpenSTEP 4.2, and the last thing Apple made which I truly liked wholeheartedly was Snow Leopard).
Oh yeah, make the Apple Pencil work on an iPhone....
Instead, these days, I have a Samsung Galaxy Note 10+, Book 3 Pro 360 (two of them, panic-bought a spare when I though the line was being discontinued, it's now up to a Book 5), Kindle Scribe Colorsoft (replacing a first-gen unit) and a Wacom One display connected to a MacBook (purchased by an employer) and more Wacom styluses than I can easily count....
The high watermark of my graphical computing experience was using an NCR-3125 running Go Corp.'s PenPoint w/ FutureWave SmartSketch when mobile, and a NeXT Cube w/ a Wacom ArtZ --- I've tried pretty much every thing in-between since, but when things were finally getting better, Microsoft did Fall Creator's Update and everything came crashing down....
I'd really like for Apple to make a device trifecta which I would actually be willing to buy.
So I agree the iPad range is more complicated than it needs to be but I'm not as enthralled by the Macbook Neo as the author.
For one thing, a base iPad is US$349. Sure you need a keyboard too but it is less than $599. And the core of the Macbook Neo is a previous generation iPhone chip whereas the latest iPad has an M14.
If anything, a better melding of these product lines looka a lot more like the Huawei Mate Book Fold [1].
My biggest issue with Apple's current lineup is actually Face ID. I dearly love my iPad Air because it's about the last Apple device I own that still uses Touch ID.
Nobody will change my mind about Face ID. It's terrible. I'm fine if others want to use it. But please just put Touch ID on the button like the iPad Air on every device, particularly the iPhone.
Face ID terrible for visually impaired people who have to look closer at the screen. This is a common cause for Face ID failures where you have to move the device away from your face for it to work. And you rack up false posiitves this way. Apple is way too zealous with how many false negatives force a passcode entry. I know in the Touch ID entry I barely have to use my passcode. With my current iPhone I have to use it many times a day.
And then Face ID just fails all the time in low light conditions such that you have to light up your face with an external light to make it work. The iPad's screen light by itself isn't enough.
So much for "seamless".
So if you solved this problem there's no real reason to separate the iPad Pro and iPad Air lines.
> You’d think that Apple would have seen the launch of the M1 as a clear moment to maximally delineate between MacBooks and iPad.
It's been a long-term goal of Apple for the iPad to eclipse and replace the Mac, in the same way the Mac eclipsed and replaced the Apple ][. Or the Lisa[0]. In fact, I would not be surprised if it turned out a driving goal of the Apple Silicon transition was just to make the Mac more like an iPad so that they'd consume less engineering resources to release.
That, of course, backfired, because Apple suddenly started releasing actually compelling laptops again. Oops! But the original design intent is clear: the Mac is a legacy platform. I mean, app developers don't even pay 30% on it. Apple doesn't design platforms like macOS anymore, due to a combination of toxic max-security[1] and not wanting to be embarrassed by third-parties out-innovating them on their own turf.
This is where I start to disagree with the author, though. The clear separation between mouse software and finger software was a mandate from Steve Jobs intended primarily to force developers to make apps that are finger-friendly. But nothing prohibits you from writing software that respects both modes of input. Furthermore, the only clear path for the iPad is for it to become more like a Mac.
The problem is that Apple also wants to obfuscate the issue by pretending like the capability gap has been met with better windowing. The real problem are all the things Apple considers non-negotiable: i.e. there are going to be apps that will never fit into Apple's sandboxing restrictions, and apps whose economies of production do not afford handing off 30% of revenues in commission to Apple. Whether or not those apps happen to let you plug in a keyboard and mouse into a tablet is a different question.
But at the same time, of course the tablet should support a mouse if you plug it in, and of course if I plug in a touchscreen into a laptop that should work too.
[0] TBH, you develop apps for the iPad in the same way early Mac apps were developed on a Lisa.
[1] I am stealing this term from tom7.
I see a lot of people in the comments wanting to use iOS on a laptop, or connecting a mouse and keyboard to an iPad/iPhone. I don't know what the point would be. For anything that is not purely content consumption, a regular laptop is superior to a tablet, phone, or touchscreen generally. What use case other than "it's cool" do you actually expect to use this for?
I keep wanting to buy an iPad, but I create more than I consume, and it's a pointless device for creators (except maybe for drawing/illustration). I have no idea why someone would want a touchscreen and iOS on a Macbook Neo. If you're trying to do something other than passively consume content, a Macbook Neo is a better device than an iPad and does not need a touchscreen.
Coming soon! The rumored Macbook Ultra may have a touchscreen.
Love having a touchscreen laptop, though I'm annoyed that Apple will lock it behind a $5k price tag for now.
For people that say, the iPad should be fingers only. No.
I love to do math on the iPad. I like to also draw on the iPad.
A pencil is necessary.
"Almost anything that doesn’t involve the Apple Pencil (Procreate being one of the true killer apps, the app that may have sold more iPads to creative professionals than anything else) could be done better on a MacBook. Even email feels better on a MacBook.
"Today, they sit in the corner. iPadOS simply isn’t an environment for most “serious” work."
You sound ridiculous.
Half of your argument evolves around your distorted view of "serious work".
What do you consider serious work?
I analyse satellite pictures from conflict zones on my M1 Pro iPad while smoking a blunt, on my back, on a blanket in the park, right now, and probably get paid by the hour more than you make in a day. I can ENHANCE with the power of my fingers as gradually as I need on a 13" screen, not being limited by tiny touchpad space or getting a stiff neck. Try the same with a MacBook.
I’d call that serious work.
My GF put her MacBook away and does Music via Creator Studio on her iPad Pro since it released, mobile and in a creative setting without disruption by her phone, or the necessity of a table, because the iPad got Cellular, and she can live comfortably from it. She’s actually working right now on the other side of the tree.
Not serious work either I guess.
My brother is taking photos of government officials during their travels, and works on iPad Pro exclusively during shoots. It’s much nicer to discuss and touch up photos with an official on an iPad than holding your MacBook in their face like an early 2000s playboy photographer.
Not serious work either I guess.
I frequently visit the Parliament in my country. A lot of the legislation knowledge work is done on iPads. By people who rather chill with the Parliament visitors in the sunlight, thanks to nanotexture, having a chat with them, without looking unapproachable behind a laptop screen or balancing a MacBook on their knees. iPads invite social interactions and make you approachable. MacBooks put up a wall.
Not serious work either I guess.
They are more mobile. I can basically sit down everywhere and get serious work done without looking like a MacBook Moron with an external screen battleship setup and an extra mouse.
My brother’s wife is using the LiDAR sensor inside the iPad Pro for her interior design work. She can do everything on one device. Where’s the LiDAR in the MacBook?
Guess that is not serious work either.
It has GPS, good luck navigating to the next gas station from the middle of nowhere when your phone dies with your MacBook. Guess you’ll just point it at the sky and yell Connect!.
If you travel for work iPad can be a lifesaver.
My lawyer does most work on his iPad Pro. If you read and annotate documents for a living, why the hell would you do it on a MacBook?
I know people in construction who only use iPad and get work done. Not everyone is a writer, or photographer, or walker.
It’s not the iPad or iPadOS that is limited in a way that doesn’t let you do "serious work".
It’s actually your mental ability to come up with better solutions. Don't blame Apple for being unflexible and dumber than most smart people choosing the right tool for the right job in the place they want to be, rather than being tied to an office or a wall outlet or relying on a phone with a lot smaller battery than an iPad, and their laptop.
The pencil is just another plus. If coding is your way to do serious work, yeah you’re kinda fucked on iPad but there are millions of people who get serious work done on their iPad and then use it recreationally laying on the couch or sitting in the bus where MacBooks look silly and are uncomfortable.
I grow tired of the MacBook Neo gloating and almost like a light version of bragging in articles like this. It's coded as a critique of the iPad but it feels a lot more like "I'm typing this on a MacBook Neo and it's oh soo amazing!"
Apple is essentially selling the modern version of the eMac, and I would say the Neo is almost as bad of a purchase as that product. The real selling point of the device is that it's newly in box with a warranty. If you actually go to the used market, it's easy to find a gently used machine that is much better. Any MacBook Air with an M2 and 16GB of RAM is a better purchase.
The Neo situation is the equivalent of buying a brand new $500 Acer machine versus buying a $500 eBay ThinkPad T14 or something like that. You'll get a much better laptop by buying a used laptop versus buying that brand new Acer.
The same story goes for the MacBook Neo. It'll be successful in sales, and it's a nice machine in a lot of ways, but it's one of the most overhyped devices of our present times.
It will go down in history as a device like the iPhone 5C. Save a few bucks now, but pay for it in the near future with the kind of performance you're actually getting from it. Even basic casual tasks will chug in the very near future.
Apple is selling a device that is approximately equivalent to the $1000 laptop they were selling 5 years ago and we are acting like this is a revolutionary product. And, by the way, it's not a $500 product unless you can use the education store. It's actually $600, or $700 if you are buying a configuration that actually makes some level of sense and has enough storage. $700 will buy you a 16GB/512GB MacBook Air M2, a much better machine (better screen, battery, speakers, processor, keyboard, trackpad, I/O, etc).
And yet, still no touch screen.
I've used Mac for 20 years and iPad on&off for 10 years.. largely I agree with Craig. Touch on MacOS is basically useless, you won't realize this until you try using an iPad like a MacBook for an extended period of time. Reaching up from keyboard/trackpad to touch the screen quickly gets fatiguing. It is not ergonomic.
The iPad is meant to be used in touch mode while in your hands generally. If they were brave they'd stop pretending, strip the iPad back to its roots and make it the best touch-first experience they could.
Trying to make iPad+keyboard case a Mac replacement is an exercise in futility. Similar size/weight to a MacBook at that point, and just not as fluid as MacOS. All the Mac-like stuff (keyboard/trackpad/multitasking/keyboard shortcuts) feels bolted on. All the battery/memory management makes it feel a little flakier and less responsive than a Macbook.