> will step up and deliver better Visual Studio Code support.

In order to understand what it means to have true Lisp support in an editor/IDE, you have to understand what Lisp is about. Lisp is not just a syntax - it is a live, interactive, self-modifying computational environment. VSCode, like most editors, treats code as text files and execution as a subprocess you invoke. That model is fundamentally at odds with how Lisp development works.

Yes, there are some extensions like Calva and Joyride that attempt some serious work - but the host editor's mental model is always pushing back. So really it ain't about syntax highlighting, bracket matching, and a REPL pane you can type into.

That is something that "new devs" don't understand about Emacs. It's not about the features, nor about its looks - it's about what fundamentally it is - the Lisp REPL - a live, interactive, self-modifying computational environment. Something that VSCode could never truly become. I could never write some code in some scratch buffer, eval it and change some aspect of my editor - in Emacs, I can. And I wouldn't even have to save that code anywhere. In order for VSCode to become like that, you'd have to break its fundamental model, which causes it to become something else - not VSCode.

Therefore, if someone has no interest in Lisp just because VSCode doesn't support it nicely, well, honestly - it's their loss. You know, just because a megacorporation threw billions at developing it, it doesn't mean it's objectively better - there are still other, more pragmatic alternatives. F-35s that cost $1.7 trillion may look shiny and intimidating, but when it comes to the "real deal" - much cheaper, ugly, purpose-built, A-10 Warthog proves its worth, and does it so well that the Pentagon just can't seem to be able to retire it.

I don't think Emacs is that hard to get used to, as long as you don't expect to replicate your IDE experience right away. Like if you use Jetbrains products, expect to switch to Emacs and get the same approach right away you will just have a very very bad time.

I started using Emacs recently for Orgmode as an alternative to Obsidian, first I just thought I'd try using for about a month, and if I don't like it I'd quit. But I kept using it month after month, eventually switching it completely. It's been over a year since then.

Then I also figured I'd try some lisp since that's what it's used for, and installing SBCL and Sly was super easy. And then the actual experience of writing Lisp was easy too.

This is on Windows 10 too. You can install and update Emacs and SBCL for Common Lisp very easily with Scoop. It might not be the optimal way to do it, but it works perfectly fine. For comparison I tried installing Lem on Windows and I couldn't get it to work.

Yeah, I mean there is some support for various editors (https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/editor-support.ht...) including VS Code (https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/vscode-alive.html), but it's kind of rough (https://blog.djhaskin.com/blog/experience-report-using-vs-co...) and not exactly feature-complete with the emacs experience, plus you're still left having to figure out how to install and setup a Lisp implementation and quicklisp. I like that mine solves those for a newcomer, especially on Windows. (I myself use vim + slimv, but even that isn't quite at parity in some respects with emacs. The biggest weaknesses are around debugging, especially in the presence of multiple threads. But the essentials do work (stepping, eval-in-frame, continuing-from-a-stack-frame, selecting the various types of restarts, compiling changes before selecting restarts) so I'm still fairly productive and don't feel like I'm lacking anything sorely needed for professional work. I've hacked together some automatic refactoring bits as well, which emacs doesn't have either, and I'm eventually going to make a separated GUI test runner.)

I've been kicking the tires with mine a little bit yesterday and today, I think it's quite good for the beginner experience. But I'm constantly of two minds about reporting some feature requests. The project's primary goal seems to be existing as a stepping stone to even see what Lisp (and especially Coalton) is really all about before "graduating" to something like emacs, it feels like a secondary goal (though it is mentioned as a goal) to be usable by professionals as well, but there's inherent tension there. That's also been a weakness with the other editors: anyone already comfortable with Lisp development, professional or not, in emacs or not, isn't very likely to give the time of day to some new thing that's almost certainly not going to be as good as what they're used to. And so the new thing doesn't get the attention and feedback from experienced developers and the gap never closes.

> today's new devs have been spoiled by modern UIs (and that's a good thing) and shouldn't have to cope with Emacs and its stubborn retroness.

Two words: Programmable editor.

One of the best advantages of Lisp is the ability to metaprogram. After solving a problem, you find that your code can fit other cases and then you you write a program that will produce the relevant code for those cases. In most other PL you would have to write the slightly different code again or use a template language.

Once you get accustomed to that, you will start to decompose other parts of your workflow in smaller building blocks and realize that only a few parts differ, but they all fits the same workflow. And one of the main realization 99% of them are text, act on text, and produce text. So what you really need is a framework around text, not a bespoke assemblage of tools.

With Unix, you have the text processing tools and vi (some would say ed). All centered around the terminal, the shell and files. Emacs is another version with a lisp vm, a collection of functions and the buffer as the interface. A third version is acme with buffers and mouse clicks as commands. The idea here is to be able to build small tools that can take care of the misc. things we need to do while writing programs. From navigation to analyzing, from formatting to building, and the myriads things in between.

Modern UIs are good for beginner and light usage. Or if you're lucky, they have your specific workflow neatly packaged in some plugins. But when you get tired of having another helpful "update" messing your muscle memory, or want to establish an efficient workflow with some external program (A CL lisp runtime in your case), that's when the weakness appears.

If Lisp developers want a better editor and IDE they can support Lem.

VS Code doesn't provide the liveness and extensibility Emacs and Lisp developers enjoy in their environments.