alt Hacker NewsI design and build trains.
If I ignored a safety issue that I discovered - not one I caused by design but even one I discovered in an existing design - because of a performance review my engineering licence would be revoked and I would be kicked out of the industry.
This is a prime example of why programmers are not seriously considered engineers.
Replies
>my engineering licence would be revoked and I would be kicked out of the industry.
This isn't because you're a "real" engineer, it's because of regulation and industry licensing around specific engineering disciplines that didn't exist until the start of the 20th century. Railroad engineers in the 1800's didn't have the same set of regulations to follow, or the same liability for mistakes.
Software engineering could have similar regulation and licensing set up, though I think you'd find it to be an impossible uphill battle in today's world against the lobbying power of the big tech companies.
Engineering and math follow logic - they model reality / self-consistency and always correct themselves because of the scientific method. However, computer science is a chase of what is the most popular at the moment. Those are decisions based on the crowd, not anything close to an objective opinion, and the wrong choices are compounded every day[0][1].
Last year alone, 40 people died in Spain in a train derailment. In total, how many people have died over the last 100 years because of something a software engineer did?
"The rat is always right." - B.F. Skinner.
When the rat presses a lever, don't blame the rat. This is super reductionist of course, but I always keep it in mind.
> because of a performance review my engineering licence would be revoked and I would be kicked out of the industry.
Does this happen because train companies just decided to care or because regulators got involved? I believe it was the later. Regulation is often derided here on HN but good regulation does improve things.
I think there is a fine line. YouTube is not critical software and no one’s life depends on the safety (putting mental health aside) of the code running. Some software engineers do however write code that is critical, but to your point, I don’t think they are ever considered liable.
I went through an acquisition as a Canadian software developer getting acquired by an American company. They wanted us to be called engineers like the rest of their SWEs but in Canada it’s a protected namespace. It’s illegal to call yourself an engineer without having the ring and the papers. Which personally I can appreciate.
How is this remotely related? This is not a safety issue.
There's more than one variable here, but nice try.
The entire rail industry suffers from massive deferred maintenance issues that manifest as serious safety concerns. This shit happens in every industry: dieselgate, 737max, flint water crisis, PG&E camp fire, etc. Let's not pretend one engineering discipline is holier than thou -- especially when the consequences are derailments versus some leaked youtube videos.
> This is a prime example of why programmers are not seriously considered engineers.
I'm a programmer working in healthcare. If I ignore a safety issue anyone discovered, people die and we go to prison. Am I an engineer now?
Don't blame programmers, blame the insane annual review system at IT corporations.
Introduce the same system at train engineering companies and you'll get the same result.
Well you're not wrong, saying this as a programmer. Incompetence is unfortunately the norm in our industry.
> This is a prime example of why programmers are not seriously considered engineers.
The problem isn't the programmers ffs. In your industry, if your superior orders you (or creates the incentive) to hide bad stuff under the rug, you have the ability to push back, at least to some degree.
Programmers? We don't have that. Maybe the few of us who actually work on security critical stuff, but some generic AI BS? No chance. You're being treated as a cog.
I remember hearing this perspective when I first started in the software industry, and I agreed with it for quite some time. But frankly, we’ve never been further from it.
> This is a prime example of why programmers are not seriously considered engineers.
Seems to me like your comment is simply an example of prejudice.
You're just describing another standardized incentive structure that you're operating in, and using that as a basis to extrapolate that programmers of all kinds—whether they work on a video platform or on machinery that could cause catastrophe if it fails—are implicitly careless careerists who refuse responsibility by nature.