alt Hacker NewsI find it really strange that people who don't use lean don't just get on and use the alternatives rather that trying to get everyone who is using lean to use something else. It feels exactly like if all the emacs users in the world tried to force all vim users to use emacs.
It's important to meet reality head on: Every mathematician is not going to collaborate on the same tooling (as wonderful as that might seem on the surface to be as an outcome) human beings are different and want different things, and people are productive in different environments. In particular, people who want to formalize results within the standard framework (including zfc) are never really as a group going to care that much that lean4 doesn't let them formalize results outside of zfc.
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> It feels exactly like if all the emacs users in the world tried to force all vim users to use emacs.
That's why emacs has a vim mode[1].
Agreed. In addition I think a big reason why we are discussing formalization so much at the moment is that it has only recently become viable to do large scale formalization of mainstream mathematics, using LLMs. These same LLMs will make it much easier to translate from one language to another and port even larger codebases over.
My prediction would therefore be that the LLMs will let us work more-or-less using standard mathematical prose that then gets to codified to some machine-readable and checkable language, but what the language used by the proof checker actually is will be more of a technical detail. In particular, I suspect people will not care too much about the language used for proofs themselves, which means that we might allow for more boilerplate if it is faster to elaborate/compile, unlike current interactive theorem provers which are meant to ease the work of humans. How the language looks like for the statements of the theorems and definitions is probably more important however, since humans will want still to be able to check that what is being formalized corresponds to what they had in mind.
I have zero experience with formal verification, just speculating here - but could it be because of the network effects?
More users on your preferred tool means a more comprehensive database of existing proofs, and that makes writing new proofs easier, right?
I think it’s a lot like R vs SAS or Python and not any departure from the norm.
Mathematicians are not highly technical users that generally like programming. If you give them a path of importing someone else’s work they’ll do that instead of redoing it in their theorem prover of choice.
See the old mathematician joke:
A mathematician is asked to make tea. They take the kettle from the shelf, fill it with water, put it on the stove, turn on the heat and boil the water, then pour it into a cup.
The next day someone asks the mathematician to make tea again. The kettle is still on the stove from yesterday and there’s some leftover water in it, enough for tea.
The mathematician dumps the kettle out and puts the it away on the shelf. The mathematician says the system is in a known previously solved state and therefore trivially solved.
Now substitute 1500 lines of coq or lean for the kettle. As far as I know the outputs aren’t interchangeable like a vim or eMacs text file.
> lean4 doesn't let them formalize results outside of zfc.
A small correction: Lean 4's native semantics are DTT, not ZFC. Formalizing results for TT is arguably easier, it's the default. But you can use it for any foundation, so long as you have an implementation.
Presumably because of potential network effects that would result from everyone being able to work in a single system. I don't think it's strange or implausible for people to want that.
> It feels exactly like if all the emacs users in the world tried to force all vim users to use emacs.
I don't know about forcing, but there's certainly a long history of emacs users trying to convince vim users that they're wrong. Without loss of generality - the same is true in the other direction of course.
Software devs are more than used to having a multitude of tools at our disposal (text editors, programming languages, Linux distros...), having strong preferences, and engaging in the delicate balancing act of advocating for our favourites while living-and-letting-live as the cosmic ballet goes on. It's part of our culture; I don't think that culture necessarily exists outside. For instance, a common layman question to ask is, "Why are there so many programming languages? Why doesn't everyone just use the same one?" And I don't think mathematicians are immune to this blind spot.
The nearest equivalent to "tooling" in math, traditionally, would be notation I suppose, and mathematicians are accustomed to eventually coalescing around a single standard notation.