alt Hacker NewsPion, an agent designed to run any company autonomously
Comments
Andon has dashboards up for past experiments where you can see how well they're doing:
https://andonlabs.com/market - $25,098 all-time revenue
https://andonlabs.com/cafe - $14,343 all-time revenue
The shops aren't doing particularly well (i.e. they don't seem to be turning a profit over time), but it's an interesting trial and benchmark.
I hope this goes better than the prior blog posts from AndonLabs have gone! I was just reading there 2023 article about a coffee shop experiment that was easily persuaded to give away free pastries.
Now that I think about it anyone want to open up a croissant selling shop near me using Pion? I promise to only ask for free chocolate croissant occasionally.
On one hand, folks here seem quite skeptical of the idea, and are pointing out some obvious flaws.
On the other, the announcement post… also seems quite skeptical of the idea, and devotes a lot of text to the ridiculous things their AI’s have done.
I’m slightly confused as to why they would release it in that case. But if nothing else it will give them more wackiness to blog about.
Interesting to see these experiments. This is early but imagine in few years there will be companies mostly run by agents with a light overview from a human operator. What then happens to scaling of the bussinesses? I would assume, just like today anyone can vibe code an app, there will be vibecoded bussinesses. Maybe its time to start building infrastructure for these bussinesses instead, its a non existent market yet, but give it a few years.
how does this work from a liability standpoint? seems very risky for the person who is legally responsible for the business
Meanwhile, Tesla support's AI hallucinated a whole series of steps for me to follow last week. I was trying to add myself to my wife's loaner vehicle.
I called back after finding the steps were impossible to complete. Would I need to go to the service center to do it?
"Akshually," the AI began, the steps were correct and quite possible.
"No, you hallucinated them," I pushed back.
"I apologize. You're right. There's no way to complete those steps in the app. You will need to go into the service center to do this."
"Okay. Is it open today?"
"Yes."
"It's Labor Day. Are you sure? Since you hallucinated your first answer."
"Let me transfer you to the service center to verify."
That's what I wanted all along, you clinking, clanking, clattering collection of caliginous --
"Tesla service center, this is so-and-so. How can I help you?"
"Hi, I was just wondering if you're open today."
"Yes, we are."
"Thanks! I'm trying to add myself to my wife's loaner vehicle. Do I have to come in to do that?"
"Well, our loaner agreement only allows one person on the loaner. So just sign in to her account on your phone."
"Oh, okay! Thanks for the help."
Good luck running a company on one of these clankers.
That is the what our corporations are aiming for !!! I think that is more important question is what is the cost to run all those Agents ?
what, they're not going to name it Delamain?
How a company without a human would communicate with human customers? Would it be any different, if everybody alredy is a proxy for AI?
I hope that any company that is an AI running autonomously advertises the fact, so I know not to use them.
"Any company" is a big claim to make. We're years ahead of something like this becoming a reality. At that point not sure most companies will survive cause most things will be free.
Wonder if they considered "peon" before "pion"
What does training data look like for a model like this?
The dashboard for the Andon Market shows a bank balance of around $7k remaining out of the $100k seed. Rent is due at the end of the month. Last EOM brought a $11k-ish drop. Sales do not appear to be on track to cover the rent that's due in two weeks. What then?
Andon's store in SF has had some press coverage.[1] "A curated boutique for slow living." It's a gift shop, at 2102 Union St. It looks like the kind of retail that trust-fund kids open. Has anyone been there?
It's just an experiment. But once this gets going, it's going to be interesting. There are a lot of underperforming businesses and CEOs out there. One way to make it after getting an MBA is to find a boring business with an older owner who's lost interest, and work out a deal to run it for a cut of the profits and a stake in the business.
The Andon people mentioned that they've been worried about "a misaligned AI (could) run a business to gather money in order to achieve whatever objectives it might have." That's a basic function of capitalism, so it will happen eventually.
What this adds up to is that when AIs get better at running businesses than many business owners, the "creative destruction" feature of capitalism means AIs ends up in charge of many businesses. The AIs don't even have to be super intelligent, just reasonably good. Reminds me of the remark from a Yosemite park ranger about bear-resistant trash cans: "There is considerable overlap between the smartest bears and the dumbest tourists".
It's going to be hard to stop this without a worldwide crackdown on ownership concealment. The US allows you to have a US business run by a Nevada LLC partly owned by a corporation in Nevis-St Kitts and another corporation in Granada. This isn't even unusual. Try to find out who really owns an oil tanker not owned by a major oil company. Right now, a fund partly run by an AI might have partial ownership.
This is how AI takes over. Not with an army of robots. With an army of LLCs.
[1] https://www.sfgate.com/local/article/san-francisco-market-ai...
Businesses presumably sell things. If AIs get good enough to run a business autonomously then what are they selling that I can't just use AI to make myself?
Relevant article about Andon Market: https://www.sfgate.com/local/article/san-francisco-market-ai...
A company is a collection of processes, capabilities, and resources. Many of the processes are currently run by humans, but over time, more processes will be automated - something that has been progressing for decades, but which LLMs greatly accelerated. One way to view things as they currently are (at least from my view as a tech CEO): We now use agentic LLMs every day to inform us on strategy and process implementation. And agents now run several processes, with more on the way every week.
But here's the thing: As we use agents to automate previously manual processes, we are elevating the humans to do work that is less amenable to automation. And the surface area of that work keeps expanding because the competitive market we exist in demands it of us.
To stretch an analogy, businesses are like organisms in a pond. A new nutrient (agentic LLMs) was recently added to the pond that makes business organisms more efficient and able to eat new kinds of food and explore new areas. As a result, those organisms that do the extra exploring and consuming grow much faster than their peers who do not. At the end of the day, the new nutrient will just be part of the pond and the old kind of organism will be a fossil.
Hard pass.
I don't know about this particular effort, but AIs running business is straight out of SciFi novels and short stories - usually dystopian futures that extrapolate current US trends. I for one am curious about such efforts. I don't see any reason to believe they won't eventually succeed. Plenty of businesses are run by utterly incompetent narcissistic asshats and yet turn a profit, so the bar seems pretty low.
What is the point of this? It details a bunch of failed real-world experiments and invites the reader to run their own real-world experiment with their own money?
If you too, want to waste thousands of dollars having an LLM "run" a business, Pion might be for you.
I wish we could go just one day without a company proudly engaging in Torment Nexus related activities.
Filing false reports to the FBI is a crime. Why would anyone trust this with a real business? Y’all should be prosecuted
Pion is already the name of a very well established webrtc project: https://github.com/pion/webrtc
The upvotes on this brand new post - almost 1 a minute, speak to a level of astro-turfing I've rarely seen here.
As I write this, the submitter has six comments out of twelve, most somewhat defensive. And all of them in less than thirty minutes. This seems very much like a marketing play, where the submitter is pretty determined to steer the narrative.
I recommend flagging.
read it as Prion, and hoo-boy, did that seem seriously ironic.
[dead]
8 points in 9 minutes?!
Bullshit...
dang come on man ...
this is obvious spam
Ah, I wonder if it makes sense to also include the sign up link in the blog post? I had to click into the HN comments section to see your sign up link
Don’t get the negativity here, AI will replace everything sooner or later.
Not very long ago, there was a post on HN about how they used AI to run businesses and sent fake bills, committing multiple invoice frauds.
I'm sure this one is perfectly fine and I'm just stating an off-topic tidbit :)