alt Hacker NewsAsk HN: Do you want a router that has DD-WRT pre-installed?
I sometimes run across comments where someone says they want an open-source router. I wonder if this is a viable idea for someone to start as a small company. What makes me hesitant is that, first, it looks like this already exists in several wireless and non-wireless routers (like the GL.iNet Flint or OpenWrt One), and second, I assume hackers would just make their own.
I have been flashing DD-WRT to my routers for many years. My current setup is an Archer C9 that connects via cable to an Archer C8, which then wirelessly bridges to an R7000. All of them run DD-WRT. If I had "fun money," I would buy a low-power SFF PC with dual NICs, run OPNsense or OpenWrt, and use the wireless routers strictly as access points. Since I don't have that much to spend, I look for older DD-WRT friendly routers, usually under $30, on Craigslist or Facebook Marketplace, and flash them myself.
I see that Ubiquiti and MikroTik make quality routers with proprietary OSes for around $65 new. Protectli and Netgate offer pfSense routers starting at $259.00. The GL.iNet Flint 2 is $169.00, and the OpenWrt One is $89.
According to ResellBot (because eBay now requires a login to see sold listings with prices), the sold "DD-WRT Routers" generally go for under $160. These include the WRT3200ACM, Netgear AC1750, Linksys EA9300, and Linksys R7350.
When I asked an AI how I would go about judging interest, building, raising funds, and manufacturing, it seems doable but expensive (said $125,000 minimum in total made up of $30,000 for regulatory approval, engineering and protoyping $10,000+) and time-consuming just to get to a "golden prototype" for demos.
So if I were a "hacker" and wanted an open-source router, depending on my funds, I would either:
1. Flash DD-WRT to an existing router (used or new).
2. Buy one with it already installed, like the OpenWrt One or a Protectli device.
3. Get an SFF PC and build my own.
I remember when some comments about DropBox said it was a waste because any hacker could make that. I also know DropBox was marketed to the average person and businesses. I don't really see how a hacker friendly router could take off like that unless hackers are choosing the hardware and setting up the networks for average people. And I assume that most people setting up the networks want different qualities like brand name recognition, ease and speed of purchasing equipment (Walmart or BestBuy), and the ability to point a customer or family member to the number of solid reviews and articles saying it a good router to qualify their choices.
So, do you actually want a router that you can buy with DD-WRT pre-installed?
Comments
get a gl.inet router
they are not prohibitively expensive and have a version of openwrt installed
if anything, you are sure to be able to install openwrt on them yourself
if you get good at openwrt you can install it on other parts of your home network like the zyxel gs1900 series switches for up to 48 ports
the reason not to install off-the-shelf consumer routers is privacy, security and enshittification
Many stock Firmware is just OpenWRT with fancy interface. I remember Asus being one.
Yes, or open Wrt
All my routers run TOMATO
Wow, the timing of this question is eerie. Just last week, I got tired of talking about segmenting my network but never doing it. So I did some research, asked some friends, and settled on the following:
* An Opnsense firewall (purchased from Deciso; ie: "official" hardware)
* An OpenWRT One (ie: "official" hardware) to be used as an access point
* A Microtik switch (SW OS, not Router OS)
My plan is to create multiple SSIDs, have each one on a different vlan, and then control services provided to that vlan. For example, I'll dump all IOT crap onto a vlan that doesn't have internet access.
I'm still not 100% sure it will work (the hardware still hasn't arrived). But finally, to answer your question: "Yes!"
Holy crap, give me official hardware. I installed DD-WRT on my linsys router. It's been so long that I don't remember exact details, but the process was INTIMIDATING. I felt like I had to download a blob from a website that wasn't the official website (ie: I seem to recall different people building DD-WRT for different hardware). I also recall some features not being available on some hardware.
Give me the hardware that is sold by the people that work on the project!
I want some reassurance that I have the "most supported hardware", so I don't have to go through huge feature matrices to see if my hardware supports feature X.
I want headroom to install new packages. I don't want to have so little space that I need to remove one package to install another.
And finally, I want the people writing the software to GET PAID, because I want it to still be around... and being actively developed 10 years from now.
PS:
I initially wanted to get a consumer grade switch, but my network operator friends told me that was a terrible idea... and that I should get a use Cisco switch on Ebay. Cisco is probably great and network operators love it... but holy crap... trying to figure out what switch to buy is an enormous pain in the a$$. I pushed my friends, they relented and said: "Mikrotik is also great". I went to their website. 1000 times better than Cisco's; their switches were cheaper. I didn't have to "call for a quote" or scour Ebay. I haven't turned it on yet, but the buying experience was so much better.
I did build my own router, two actually, but opted into buying one of the Deciso appliances with OPNSense pre-installed for the main WAN connection from my house to the ISP upstream.
The biggest reason I did that is that I wanted four ports, not two, and I could not find a mini-ITX motherboard or any other commodity form factor with four ports built-in. Once you have to add an expansion card, you need a case quite a bit larger than what you're used to for a home network appliance.
That's an underfilled niche, small form factor single boards with more than two high-speed NICs, but presumably it's underfilled for a reason, which is there aren't many individual consumers, as opposed to third-party packagers like Deciso who sell appliances to enterprises, who want these. The other consideration is server-grade mini-ITX boards that have even two onboard NICs have a whole lot of other features not needed in a networking appliance that end up consuming more power than is ideal. If you could offer such boards, with or without a case, with or without a pre-installed operating system, I'd definitely be interested, but I'm one guy. Don't build a business on scratching the itch of notoriously stingy homelab enthusiasts. We're the kind of people who will gladly pay $400 a week on groceries and then scoff at a $10 a year software subscription as something unconscionable.
Yes. With upgradable radios.
The openwrt ones are usually better.
IMHO, those who want a router with open-source firmware are going to have the technical knowledge to do the finding and flashing themselves, by virtue of being embedded in tech deeply enough to recognize the value of an open-source firmware in the first place.
Those who look at you blankly when you mention open-source router firmware aren’t likely going to become customers.
I'll tell you what i wouldn't get - if you have an asus router, i'd steer clear of merlin
They leave a bunch of data sharing options built in and on by default with no warning, acknowledgement, etc and I suspect it's why asus lets the project continue to run
I got this idea too. To sell the openwrt preinstalled routers.
maybe preinstalled but easily able to overwrite with a downloaded version from dd-wrt as no one should trust preinstalled firmware on these devices.
I am a very very happy GL.iNet customer, and probably have 10+ of their devices.
I'd love that!
The most important thing here is the price and with a low volume you would never hit the low price per unit.
And the person which knows what DD-WRT is knows where and how to get it for a good (for them) price.
So you target audience is already has their needs fulfilled and you don't add any additional value worth the increased price.
I used to use pfsense and openwrt and stuff but now with Claude I just use a custom Linux distribution running on a dell 2u. That being said I have 25 gbps of internet across 5 internet providers (puerto Rico) and that plugs into my internal home network running at 2x 25 gbps . So for savings it’s like two quad 10 gbps cards. I’ve found substantial speed advantages via consumer hardware considering the cross sectional bandwidth is like 70 gbps
Thinkpenguin used to sell Rosewill routers that came with a particular Linux installed, but their value add was no proprietary blobs, everything open source and FSF certified IIRC.
I used to use DD-WRT, and Tomato, and Shibby's mod of Tomato, and Advanced Tomato, and other stuff. Somewhere, I'm sure I still have a WRT54GS that I hacked ~20 years ago to accept SD cards. It was a fun time in using inexpensive hardware in unintended ways.
At one point, and I don't remember exactly when, I just started using OpenWRT instead. It wasn't always the case, but it presents a very usable GUI straight away these days and it has a ton of flexibility for getting creative later.
At home I run it on a Pi4 that I bought for the purpose. It keeps up with my 500/20Mbps DOCSIS internet very well indeed. I've used it with a USB NIC to get dedicated ports, and also with VLANs and a managed switch instead. I just download and flash the card, plug stuff in, and configure it. No real issues -- for years, now. (Wireless is provided by Mikrotik access points.)
When something faster happens in my neighborhood (which may be very soon; I had a very brief chat with a dude whose fiber splicing trailer was parked across the street just yesterday), I'll probably want to move to something more capable.
That could be in the form of faster Pi, or an old PC running OPNsense -- or even stick with OpenWRT. No big deal.
If I really wanted a tidier package for light-weight travel or something, then I guess I'd pick something appropriate from glinet and put an official OpenWRT image on it.
For heavier-travel, I've got a kit with a Pi4, a managed PoE switch, and a backup Mikrotik box (that can be a switch or a router; it runs OpenWRT as well and the normal config is that it just provides more switch ports), and all this stuff is mounted onto a 1U rack shelf that is in-turn inside of a road case. It's meant to be physically durable and to include enough gear that if any part of it dies then I can replace that functionality Right Now without spending time finding parts in the middle of nowhere.
So, no: I would not buy one that was prefabulated. It wouldn't scratch my itch.
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For everyone else? Honestly, the regular folks I know who ask me questions about networking aren't into that stuff at all or they wouldn't be asking. They don't care about ultimate speeds, or latency under load, or any of those things. They don't care about running Internet services from their network, or services on their local network, and probably don't even have a printer to abuse if something goes awry. They're also not interested in exploring the bowels of their home to install cabling for PoE access points.
They just want decent-enough wifi coverage that they don't have to think about it, and then: They want to succeed at not thinking about it.
So for those folks, I've come to recommend proprietary multi-node mesh systems. It doesn't really matter to me which one it is, or how terrible some aspect or other is: They all tend to check the right boxes, they update themselves, and then: Nobody thinks about them.
Nope. I want one with OpenWRT
also
> 4. used terminal PC, they go for cheap. Just add ethernet usb card for second link
also
> 5. plenty of small form factor multiple ethernet boards you can get on ARM and even x86, tho gonna be more expensive than a dedicated router
50/50
This is not a new idea.
Several companies/single owner LLC's do this for a massively inflated price.
I understand why the inflated price, support and warranties, etc.
IT is not that hard for people who are technically inclined.
People who are not into it don't understand why.
If placement/marketing was for SMB that wanted to maximize dd-wrt usage and get a support contract in place I can see that
but outside of that, and a marketing youtube channel and being proactive on reddit, Idk how much can it scale and what point will you not get a cease and desist from vendors because I'm sure they have something nasty in their terms of service, which I think you may need to click through to enable the flash.
You've identified your market competiton price points, and all have deeper pockets than you, but do not offer free, open source software.
WRT3200ACM and the other previous model is a fab of mine to grab, it's been a year but I've collected 10+ and deploeyd them in strategic places for personal use,
You wouldn't need regulatory approval IMO. prototyping, what type? You'd follow the release schedule, get the best flavors/models and support those.
Overtime maybe you'd contribute back to the project, especially during hardware revisions. But it is very different from buying used hardware from ebay and flashing it to resell vs buying new and selling it as a value add on.
1. Yes, proper hacker route.
2. Proper route to an extent, it legitmiazes support, warranty and security.
3. Expensive, time consuming but, doable but not likely.
Yeah, the dropbox comment is infamous, but that was about launching a new SAAS that has infinite potential scale and solved a problem no one really wanted to fix at the time outside of one drive (which sucked at the time, was called skydrive afaik) and usb sticks which are...great but USB3 was new, usb2 was there and people were arguing back and forth why usb3 wasn't working or such
so:
to answer your question you need to really figure out a basic marketing question of 3 P's.
Product Price Placement.
Product is DD-WRT. Price: It's free. Placement: People that know what it is but don't have free time to install it?
No, not quite right, right? Let's try again:
Product: DD-WRT routers preconfigured for enterprise support and SMB. Price: Retail price of router + $100 per sold, with 1 yr warranty, additional warranty and stuff available at x and y? Placement: People that know what it is about but don't have free time ot install it or want to offshore this for a price.
Slightly better, but still:
So do I want it? I welcome anything FOSS in general w/ GNU/Linux and its a much needed stepping stone to continue having a decentralized internet:
but if it was so easy, people would've done it already, and they do.
It also reminds me of fontana which is how I netted a free WRT54G for offering what exactly, I don't know, but boy did I flash DD-wrt on that badboy and link it to my neighbors WiFi for free roadrunner internet to get my anime fansubs. So while as much as I'd like for the idea to flourish/am surprised wardriving and torrenting anime was a vector for getting me into tech I don't see it much out of a hobby business
and that is 100% OK
If you throw $5-10k a year at it, I think you can corner the niche, use AI automaiton for marketing campaigns, target tech conventions/festivals (like VCF) and youtube to build a audience it can scale.
but 125k? wow, no way - you ccan really do this for much less.
back to the scope of a opensource router: same as above, but if you really want, you need to find a manufacturer that already has a pre built configuration that at minimum supports the newest radio and minimum gigabit ethernet. GLI has theirs at $169, and hardware is a miminmal markup business, you can really find something similar to that and do a proper hardware cycle with a manufacturer and somewhat a contract but thats 50K including FCC licensing (if you know what to do, and you do the licensing yoruself, as well as Electrek/uL to cover CSPC. But hey, in todays world, everyone (well for past 30 years too) just makes it up and folds thier llc when caught.
For more business minded ideas, heres one about MSO/s and GLP1 from a Ycombinator 3x foudner and I comment with the same dissent:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49543849
So tl;dr why not pitch it for ycombinator winter, I think it's still open for submissions.
Add AI (why not, right?) and you can have a walking talking configuratuion wizard guide you to addung ublock,adblock, pihole, etc instead of the broken ecosystem we have today within dd-wrt because while I clearly can spot the pain points and issues, I lack the ability to turn them into viable selling points for investors to give me money and I should fix that someday :(
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Ddwrt is a joke today. I would pay to have it go away forever or finally become mature and not be forever in beta.
Glinet routers are already this.
Buy https://www.gl-inet.com/en-us/products/gl-mt3600be and move on with your life.
Alternately, what's the problem you're trying to solve? Who are your potential customers? Why do existing options in the market not address their needs?