alt Hacker NewsGetting tired of their framework-free narrative.
What they are doing is backing in the browser, via specifications and proposals to the platform, their ideas of a framework. They are using their influence in browser makers to get away in implementing all of this experiments.
Web Components are presented as a solution, when a solution for glitch-free-UI is a collaboration of the mechanics of state and presentation.
Web Components have too many mechanics and assumptions backed in, rendering them unusable for anything slightly complex. These are incredible hard to use and full of edge cases. such ElementInternals (forms), accessibility, half-style-encapsulation, state sharing, and so on.
Frameworks collaborate, research and discover solutions together to push the technology forward. Is not uncommon to see SolidJS (paving the way with signals) having healthy discussions with Svelte, React, Preact developers.
On the other hand, you have the Web Component Group, and they wont listen, they claim you are free to participate only to be shushed away by they agreeing to disagree with you and basically dictating their view on how things should be by implementing it in the browser. Its a conflict of interest.
This has the downside that affects everyone, even their non-users. Because articles like this sell it as a panacea, when in reality it so complex and makes so many assumptions that WC barely work with libraries and frameworks.
Replies
> Web Components have too many mechanics and assumptions backed in, rendering them unusable for anything slightly complex. These are incredible hard to use and full of edge cases. such ElementInternals (forms), accessibility, half-style-encapsulation, state sharing, and so on.
You could say the same about the DOM itself. That’s why frameworks were created in the first place. The Custom Element API is complex. The DOM is complex. It’s just that we’re used to the latter and not the former.
I love web components, but the fact that there's plenty of shadow-dom piercing properties defeats their purpose of "author them once, reuse them in different applications".
One very common pitfall I encounter is the html's own base font size, since it impacts all the calculations in your webcomponents. Use a webcomponent with a font size of 12/14/16 and you get completely different behavior.
If they were truly isolated they would really scale, but they don't.
We have been using the isolation stuff in Web Components to make React applications that our partners can embed in web pages regardless of what other CSS and JS they use. I don’t know if I’d want to make an application with 100 tiny web components at the level of individual buttons and such that work together but self-contained widgets that pop into a web page look great to me.
Ideally, good ideas battle tested in various frameworks, would make it into the browser over time.
For example with signals https://github.com/tc39/proposal-signals
I agree that the original 4 parts of the web component spec ( custom elements, shadow dom, templates, modules ) had varying levels of battle testing and perhaps the most valuable ideas ( custom elements and ES modules ), were those which did have the biggest precedence.
> Frameworks collaborate, research and discover solutions together to push the technology forward. Is not uncommon to see SolidJS (paving the way with signals) having healthy discussions with Svelte, React, Preact developers.
This feels a bit deflective from the very real issue of in page framework interoperability - which is different from dev's taking to each other and sharing ideas.
Agree. web components are not a 1 to 1 replacement for a component based framework. There was a lot of promise but the implementation is lacking.
Wow, this is a weird a comment. Who are "they"? You sound like you think there's some giant conspiracy against JS frameworks. Is the Illuminati behind this? I kid, but a browser feature is kind of what it is. It can take years for features to make it into enough browsers to make them usable. It's quite a bit different than the fluidness of a JS framework.
This discussion comes up all the time and I always have the same response: not everyone needs a full-on framework for what they're doing. They also may need to share that code with other teams using other frameworks or even third parties. The post even mentions that web components may not be a good fit for you.
Yes Microsoft DHTML and behaviors were this and represented tremendous lock-in. Plus, they were terrible. Those who don’t know their history are truly doomed to repeat it.
> Web Components have too many mechanics and assumptions backed in, rendering them unusable for anything slightly complex.
Does not line up with my experience (the past 8 years or so of working with native web components, Polymr and the Lit library) at all. You can build staggeringly complex views using nothing but web components, I’ve done it, I am doing it, and inshallah I will keep doing it.
What in particular do you believe web components are unusable for? What do you count as crossing the line into ‘slight complexity?’
Web components are just a way for developers to build their own HTML elements. They're only a "framework" in as much as the browser is already a framework that wires together the built-in HTML elements.
I don't see any reason to lock away the ability to make nodes that participate in the DOM tree to built-in components only. Every other GUI framework in the world allows developers to make their own nodes, why shouldn't the web?
> too many mechanics and assumptions backed in, rendering them unusable for anything slightly complex.
Do you have any concrete examples there? What "mechanics" are you referring to. Given that very complex apps like Photoshop, Reddit, The Internet Archive, YouTube, The Microsoft App Store, Home Assistant, etc., are built with web components, that would make the claim that they're unusable seem silly.
With your other specific complaints about the community, I think I can guess you are. That person come into our discord server, was so mean and rude to everyone that they had to be told by multiple people to chill out. Had one very specific proposal that when multiple people thought it was a bad idea, threw a fit and said we never listen. You can't just come into a place and behave badly and then blame the community for rejecting you.