alt Hacker NewsAll phones sold in the EU to have replaceable batteries from 2027
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I used to work for Nokia back when they still made phones. Replaceable batteries were very normal then. Phones were a bit thicker than today but not massively so. These days phones are actually thinner but much larger. I had a "are you happy to see me or is that a Nokia" type Nokia 9300. That was a brick. But it had a full hw keyboard. and flipped open it wasn't that much bigger than a modern smart phone.
You could argue that the trend towards more energy dense batteries and wireless charging could enable new interesting form factors. Recent phones have magnetic connectors for external wireless chargers/batteries that snap to the back. Most of bulk and weight of a phone is for accommodating batteries. You could make an argument that making a phone with replaceable batteries is easier than ever. Many cameras have a bulge for the camera. The negative space of the rest of the phone could easily hold a swappable battery. How critical are those 3mm really?
If a battery can do 1000 cycles and remain above 80% capacity it is exempt from this, which is exactly what Apple implemented a few years ago.
Low cost phones will be most affected.
Aren't today's phone batteries already replaceable with commercially available tools? I can walk into a non-apple store with my iPhone and walk out with a replaced battery 20 minutes later.
This isn't even what drives obsolesce of phones, it's software updates.
If you really want to be able to self-swap your own battery, you can just buy an Android that has a replaceable battery.
Do we need to regulate something that isn't a problem? All regulation has downsides, is it worth paying this price here?
I'm an exception for sure but I have not seen much innovation in the phone space that you'd genuinely make me buy a new phone.
Yes, cameras are better now. But some phones had good cameras years ago. I bought new phones mainly because of battery decline and/or not getting security updates.
If one of these will be solved, that might change my phone buying behaviour.
I don't care whether a display is called "retina" , whether the next edition comes in the colour "space banana grey while lion tiger snail".
And I don't need to impress someone by proving that I'm able to buy a new phone either. Such behaviour gives me a good hint what to think about them though.
A phone that will have the battery situation solved is a killer argument. Then I'd like to have a software distribution on top that it's "mum compatible" and doesn't need nerd knowledge to maintain. Something that allows to use banking apps.
Let's see how it goes. Also I hope that there can be third party batteries without DRM-like behaviour.
Batteries have been used as part of planned obsolescence for too long and a whole small business industry of replacing phone batteries has appeared because of it. Next the EU are going to have to address security patches because its another aspect being used to sell new phones.
What if we regulate batteries even more? i.e. what if, in some magical perfect world, the world get's together and agrees on batteries for phones like how we agree on AA,AAA,D,C batteries? Even more though.. a standard connector, a standard comms bus, a variety of sizes, and they were designed for reuse as efficiently as possible.
Now we can scale up volume, swap them out, be free to purchase from a different manufacturer, and have scaled up recycling services.
This is great news. Every once in a while something good comes out of EU. Now of course, our US friends are telling myriads of reasons why this is obviously stupid and unnecessary. But it's not. Letting users actually maintain their devices is only smart.
I wish they actually standardised the USB-C with actual data transfer and charging protocols inside, not just the physical shape of the port. It's a total mess these days. Why PD and QC are even different protocols? Why there are USB 2.0, USB 3.0 and then there are 3.2 gen 1 and 3.2 gen 2? And what about Thunderbolt?
It's a good move, but that is not enough. My old Chinese phone had a replaceable battery but it lasted so long that after it died, it was not possible to find the replacement. It seems that all phones have batteries with different sizes, and potentially different third pin designation, so even if you find smaller battery, it still can be incompatible because of third pin.
So if you want phones to be usable for longer period, you need to standardize batteries.
Bit tinfoil hat, but outside of the phone becoming thinner and other design benefits with integrated batteries, I largely think the intelligence community has an aligned interest to keep phone batteries from being hot-swappable like pre-iphone days.
Given the drafts vs final version of the bill/policy, looks like the battery now must be more easily replaced vs true camera-like battery hot swap.
Even with an iPhone turned off, NSA can still listen:
A lot of discussion about 'whether its needed' or 'moving a needle'. Batteries were swappable back in the day, and later on someone figured that making battery suck, can drive you to buy a new phone - because it is harder to degrade the rest of the device faster. Then we accepted that you cannot play around the battery, bcs that's the reality of things. So many people won't even think about it - but it does not mean it is not needed. I would love to make my device much better with swapping battery as many time as needed.
But then I think someone will figure out to make these batteries so expensive, that it won't change a thing.
Seems to me like the top goal should be: you can easily replace the most-likely-to-break parts (screen, back, battery, etc) in any local independent repair shop, with genuine parts that have low markups.
I'm confused why that still isn't the case today given all the EU headlines we've seen over the years.
Now they only need to make sure that a supply chain for replacement batteries exists, there is regulation and competition and options remain available for a reasonable price.
There are plenty of old Dell and HP laptops with replaceable batteries which can only be found on eBay or some random seller that does who knows what under the refurbishing process.
Next, do user installable OS. Phones are the costliest gadgets with a dizzying range of sensors/capabilities and more than enough RAM. Its a shame we can't use them for a decade+, giving it a second life.
> Why isn't there any significant demand for replaceable batteries?
Most consumers are like pigs who simply eat whatever the market throws into their trough, because ultimately they have better things to do than to get deeply involved in every purchasing decision.
> If replaceable batteries were better, they would already be available.
Developments like those in the smartphone market involve complex path dependencies. That’s why you can’t simply assume that competition will lead to the product offerings converging on the best product. Furthermore, “better” needs to be defined in some way. If we leave that up to the market, it becomes a circular argument: (1) The better product prevails in the market. (2) The product that prevails in the market is the better one. This circular reasoning is the biggest flaw in market ideology. I don't understand why people can't see that. The market moves in a certain direction, and they say, “There it is—progress!”
> Regulation hinders progress.
Perhaps, at times, the opposite is true. Even if we set aside the fact that “better” is defined in a circular manner here, the path-dependence of market development sometimes causes the market to get stuck in a local optimum. Regulatory interventions in the market can then serve as an effective lever to help the market break free from that situation.
> If you want a removable battery, you're simply in the minority as a consumer.
That’s another point where I just don’t get market ideologues: why should I reject regulatory intervention on the one hand, but on the other hand, if the market doesn’t give me what I want, I’m supposed to just shut up and accept that there isn’t enough demand for my quirky, special requests? I’ve been missing removable batteries ever since they disappeared from the market. That must have coincided with the rise of smartphones. Come to think of it, maybe Steve Jobs is to blame. With iPods, there was still a public debate about the issue [1]. With the iPhone, it was just the way it was.
I find it so weird that European regulation targets very specific niches while avoiding generalization.
In order to reduce plastic pollution, they forced manufacturers to make attached bottle caps (terrible idea) but go to the supermarket and there are various fruits and vegetables each unit wrapped in plastic separately.
Now they are targeting phones but I also want my handheld and robot vacuum cleaners, electric toothbrushes, grass cutters, etc to also have batteries that can be removed and replaced without tearing down entire device and even learning soldering in some cases.
I was looking forward to finally be able to easily switch out (i)Phone batteries again - after 20 years - but turns out the lobbyists managed to get a loophole in the law - exempting Apple & Co from making their phones more repairable / longer live-able.
> If a battery can do 1000 cycles and remain above 80% capacity it is exempt
The EU with its mama energy again.
I use 15 Pro. I don't like the new aluminium iPhones much. So I just went it to Apple service center and had the battery replaced. It costs just 90 euros and I now have a brand new phone, basically.
I very much prefer my phone to be thinner, water resistant, and have a larger battery compared to being able to do it myself.
I look into my perfect workable Samsung Tab S7+ and remember that it has been an year since the last security update.
Now I rely on a few random individuals who, for all I know could be state agents or a ransomware organization to provide unofficial versions of Lineage so I can keep using it.
Battery isn't the only problem to avoid e-waste, but it's a start.
>The regulation states that batteries must be removable using ‘commercially available’ tools
This is doing a lot of work here. There's enough wiggle room for this to be absolutely meaningless. Anything short of I can slide off the back cover and maybe unscrew two or three screws to replace the battery means that a lot of people are going to end up not being able to replace the batteries.
phones are indeed becoming more repairable, and the legislation is working upto an extent.
on the other hand, mandating easier to repair components is ineffective if the manufacturer does not support the parts sale or use parts otherwise widely available in the market.
this goes beyond for other consumer electronics. in the world of laptops, which are generally more repairable, i've had my own experience with a mid-range one from lenovo, the largest vendor worldwide. [1]
the laptop was from the covid-era and one of the refresh of their popular lineup which has seen minimal changes under the hood. despite that, when i had to replace its fans and battery, i had to look for third-party sellers for the components. they are quite easy to replace but as a regular consumer it is tricky to find the correct parts and not overspend on them.
maybe with the new silicon carbide batteries, we could have a "nokia bl-5c" moment, without the counterfeit explody part.
[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/267018/global-market-sha...
One of the most frustrating things about HN is that people seem so unaware of how idiosyncratic their preferences are. If you stood on the street corner and asked every passerby what they would change about their phone, I think you would be there all day before someone said "I wish I could replace the battery".
It's okay to have idiosyncratic preferences (I certainly do), but people should recognize that this law will make phones _worse_ for most people, because this law will force phone manufacturers to compromise the things that most people want in order to provide something that most people don't want.
I suppose someone will say that this law is necessary for environmental reasons, regardless of people's preferences. But that's nonsense, because the law doesn't actually require people to replace batteries rather than replacing their phone, and by the time batteries wear out, most people are going to want a new a phone. At the very least we'd need to see some data that shows that most people replace batteries when it is possible to do so.
Recently replaced the battery and charging port of my Fairphone. 5 screws, two plucked components, done. Hopefully this means that soon you won't have to buy a specific company's phone for this marvelous experience.
I just spent a few hours [this past weekend] trying to replace a battery on an old iPod Touch and botching it (I'll blame my crappy soldering iron). Everything about that was a massive pain, prying the case open, dealing with all the glue inside, de-soldering the old battery.
I thought I did everything right but then the thing wouldn't turn on. Could be a bad battery (ordered on Amazon so zero guarantees). Then when I tried to de-solder and re-solder my new battery the pads came off it. Very annoying.
This is excellent news. Now make them have user-unlockable and user-relockable bootloaders...
I certainly understand the value of replaceable batteries. OTOH, I'm concerned about what this will mean for how many common upper end phones are IP67 submersion rated. I don't want that to go back to being a feature only of clunky super expensive phones, and I would rather have IP67 over a replaceable battery.
Now, if I'm lucky, they will mandate both a replaceable battery and that the phones be ip55 or better, after battery replacement.
I worry that this ends up, like other EU consumer-protection regulation, as an own goal.
- The cheapest phones available in the EU (and purchasable online) all have glued-in batteries, not swappable ones. Forcing consumers to use phones with swappable batteries may just mean that the bottom of the market disappears, and consumers will be left paying more for their phones. And would they rather pay less or have swappable batteries?
- This will cause some cascade of engineering changes, which will make phones thicker or less waterproof. Again, it's not clear to me that the tradeoff is being fairly reflected here.
I have never used a phone without easily replaceable battery (where "easily" means no screwdriver necessary, just pop the backcover and pull the battery out). It just happened this way, but I think I'd refuse to buy one anyway, as aside of obvious repairability and maintainability issues having the battery sealed in is also a big factor that makes dropping the phone so dangerous. When I drop my phone, the battery is easily set free to disperse its kinetic energy away from more fragile parts of the device, so it's much harder to break the phone this way. I have made some small dents and scratches from drops over the years, but no serious damage.
While this is a good step forward, it feels like complaining about the 0.025% of plastic from straws in the ocean while ignoring the 75% of plastic from fishing nets.
I own a 2020 Kona EV. The battery cannot be upgraded. Eventually, I'll have to replace the entire car to get a longer range. BEVs should be mandated to have upgradable batteries and modular interfaces so that the shell can continue to be reused, the batteries (and BMS) upgraded, and old batteries easily recycled.
Every single Pixel upgrade I made - every single one - in the last decade has been because of battery life.
This law will be tragic for Google and Apple. What will compel people to upgrade their functional phones?
What good is a replaceable battery if the device becomes obsoleted by changing communication standards first? How long before 4G and 5G are phased out? What if we could have forward compatibility in our mobile network protocols?
Awesome!
And next, hopefully, replaceable software.
Which will do much more for phone longevity.
They (Samsung, Apple, etc.) should never have been allowed to glue it behind the screen. Threaded fasteners and a silicone gasket cover is good enough for 99.999% of the public use-case.
The system like iOS is still closed. Once Apple ends support for a device, being able to swap a battery won’t help much
How about computers to have replaceable SSDs? There's no point you can exchange the battery when the hard-soldered SSD dies first. (I had more dead SSDs than batteries)
It feels like life got nerfed when I lost the ability to just swap in my extra battery when my phone died.
As long as it does not make the phone bigger or compromise the water resistance, I support the requirement.
But it is not super high on my list. Every 2 or 3 years I pay less than $100 to have a new OE battery installed, takes about an hour. There are other features I would put a higher priority on - like a good small phone option now and again.
I still sometimes miss the Samsung Galaxy I had that had a microSD slot, a removable battery, and a headphone jack.
Phones have lost so much in a decade.
They should have standardized 3 to 5 battery sizes (and their connectors, voltages, etc.), so that the same battery could be used across many different devices, which would bring down the cost even more.
Neat. That may allow repurposing phones as mini home servers too.
Lithium batteries in things running 24/7 unsupervised always makes me a bit nervous
The US can't regulate it's own economy so the EU has to do it for them
Will this affect the water-resistance of current iPhones? I thought that was why the batteries are not easily replaceable by users, because of the seals/gaskets.
I hate to say it, but the lack of removable batteries serves a purpose. It wasn't done just because 'screw consumers'.
It was done because:
* It makes phones massively easier to waterproof
* It allows for larger batteries
* It allows for more compact and lighter phones
Consumers, based on what they buy, have shown again and again that they want these features.
It also simplifies manufacture and lowers costs, which everyone likes.
I like removable batteries. If I had the option, I'd get a phone with that feature. But I know that I am certainly in the minority, as is almost everyone in this thread.
It's also worth pointing out that these days, battery and software have advanced to the point where degradation is quite slow in many cases. The phone will often outlive its useful life due to specs rather than battery.
I wish them same regulation would be enforced on toothbrushes
Bonus: reasonably accessible replaceable batteries double up as a hardware off switch.
This must be paired with strong lithium battery import regulation. Even the highest quality OEM batteries can fail in dangerous ways (See many models of Samsung, Surface or Macbook). Cheap, dangerous Chinese imports must be eliminated as an option, because the secondhand owners doing this replacement will likely buy the cheapest replacement battery available on the market.
This is good. I recently had to replace a generally working phone because the battery was dying and there was no cost effective & reliable means of replacing.
A proper gasket and screws needs to be the standard solution here.
In order to have my iPhone 11's battery replaced by my local apple authorised repair shop, inexplicably I have to leave my phone with them for days. Since the phone is old they have to order the battery from Apple and that could take up to a week, according to them. Of course it's impossible to stay without my phone for a week+ so my only option is to buy a new phone if I want to fix my battery capacity issues.
It’s been long enough that people of forgotten what’s it’s like. Cameras still have replaceable batteries, there are several benefits:
I can have two (or more) batteries, if it runs out I just change it. I don’t need walk around with a USB battery pack and cable hanging off the device preventing me from using it properly.
I can put the battery on charge somewhere and leave it, even if not completely secure, because just the battery not the device. This way my expensive device and my data is not at risk.
I can use 40+ year old cameras, because I can just put a new battery in. This is not something you can do with newer device, e.g. and iPod and you can’t even find anyone who will fit them for the older models.
Battery tech moves on. There are now some batteries with charging ports on them. Other batteries offer more capacity than the original ones. Apple even did this once for me, when MacBook Air batteries were fairly easy to replace, I had mine replaced (it wore out) at the shop and they put a slightly bigger one in, which was the standard on the newer models.