alt Hacker NewsAlberta startup sells no-tech tractors for half price
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I think this is a reaction to the incredibly locked down ecosystem that most of these mfgs are pushing.
However, the tech exists for a reason and is not inherently bad, the issue is the lock-in, the lack of choice and interoperability.
IMO, there is plenty of space for an OEM who can play nice with others, offer an open (and vibrant ecosystem), and keep users coming back by choice, not by lock-in.
I want this for cars but to keep the modern powertrain. So an EV without the tracking/touch screens, etc etc. Or an internal combustion engine car that is just simple and efficient (and again, no tracking). I'll take the low-tech but nice features like heated seats and power windows still thank you.
Late to the party here, so I don't expect this to get a lot of traction, but I'd like to point out that part of the reason this hasn't existed until recently as an option in the US is because it's functionally illegal for it to exist.
> The 12-valve Cummins is arguably the most widely understood diesel engine in North America. Every independent shop, every shade-tree mechanic with a set of wrenches, every farmer who grew up turning bolts has encountered one.
That's great! I'd point out the 12 valve wasn't introduced until the 90s, but that's kind of immaterial -- it's as simple to work on as any other mechanically injected analog diesel is and they were in widespread use for nearly a century before that. One immediately wonders why we moved away from these and towards more complex options, and why this startup has to remanufacture old engines instead of sourcing new engines. The answer among those of us who care about right to repair tends to be "evil corporations want to make proprietary systems that require ongoing fees!" which is true for John Deere, but also, the EPA mandated DEF/DPF systems + limp modes on all farm equipment since 2014, and the new relaxed standards include complicated rules about what percentage into limp mode they go at different intervals during different periods of time after those notoriously unreliable systems start to have errors. You can't do that without modern ECUs!
I'm all for reducing the harm caused by running diesel engines in the most densely populated cities on the planet (DEF and similar systems are about particulate emissions, not carbon), but we're being naive if we pretend that extending these regulations to farm equipment isn't a huge factor in why that same equipment has gotten more expensive and less reliable over the past decade.
Two things:
1. LOVE this idea as I've always been a big fan of "right to repair" and even at work, FinTech SRE/DevOps, I say things like "we want this to be like a 1975 Ford: you open the hood, look inside, understand it and it's easy to fix. We don't want a 2026 Ferrari."
2. The Econ major/MBA in me wonders how long you can sell cheaper tractors that last forever. I say this b/c it's like trying to sell 100 year lightbulbs: markets are not infinite so if you have everyone buy them in years 1-10, what do you sell after that? The general idea is that you charge MORE for these things since a. "easy to repair" is now an added feature, b. people will buy less of your thing so you need to make more money upfront.
Granted, there is probably some sweet spot and/or "even selling 1,000 == a couple million and that's enough for anyone" but I still like to debate the points
I've been musing with friends that this is a growing and untapped market. Not merely for analog-only tractors or heavy machinery, but for stripped-down/basic machinery in general. EVs eschewing the myriad of sensors and driver assists that talk back to the cloud in favor of cruise control, local cameras, and a double-din slot for aftermarket head units; cars built for simplicity of ownership and maintenance rather than service revenue extraction; computers that get work done and turn off after, rather than constantly phoning home with cloud accounts and telemetry.
It's nice to see this company doing well for itself so quickly, and I hope they deliver on every promise made while reaping immense success. At the very least, it'd send a clear and unambiguous message that the market for simplicity is there and desperate for products that cater to it.
> The farm equipment industry spent 20 years adding complexity and cost. Ursa Ag is wagering that a significant number of farmers never wanted any of it.
Nice tag line but not a complete picture. The "significant number of farmers" in terms of actual market spend driving the equipment industry is not mom-and-pop outfits but rather agri-industrial complexes with machines to match. What they want is (1) availability and (2) ROI. For (1), that is first and foremost subject to legal stipulations like EPA etc, then secondly subject to production availability. For (2), electronics are the name of the game if you are looking to turn a profit with farming because counting every seed, measuring every drop of chem, and tracking every inch of plotted ground leads to better ROI.
Better photos are found on their site: https://ursa-ag.com
Video the press are taking stills from: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDR6g9iG9Ds
Interview with more details on trade show floor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9QxeNyKbB4
I wonder how sustainable the business model is. Eventually, you saturate the market with your tractors, and if they work as advertised, they are owned and maintained for decades. A lot of people are out there farming with 60-80 year old tractors. I would suspect most of the OEM parts that need replacing are where most wear and tear is happening (the engine). Those parts come from Cummins, not this startup.
In the meantime, they have to maintain a very high fixed cost base in their factory, distribution network, and skilled unionized workforce. I'm really not even asking about how will they maximize shareholder dividends, I just mean how do you not go bankrupt after you sell your first 10,000 tractors.
This is the way if we can ensure manufacturing of the parts. It won’t catch on but it would be awesome to have “base” tractors that are mechanical and predictable. Then you slap on whatever software on top that helps (automation, etc). But they need to be decoupled imo.
After reading the title, it reminded me of a high-tech bolt. I thought people were making even bolts more complicated, gradually finding ways to monetize them by integrating ads or unnecessary technology. Even bolts are becoming harder to use. It’s surprising to see that tractors are becoming less tech heavy now, as people prefer more usable and easy-to-repair technology again. MAKE ANALOG GREAT AGAIN(MAGA)!
SMART BOLT TECHNOLOGY:
I'm not totally sure I understand. I expected these to be selling for twice the price, not half price.
I thought the whole idea of so much of the tech is to be able to lock you in and make profit that way, through servicing and features and subscriptions and whatever else.
If they're giving up that entire profit stream, they have to make money somewhere else. So how are they selling these for so much less and still making a profit? What am I missing?
> The 150-horsepower model starts at $129,900 CAD, about $95,000 USD. The range-topping 260-hp version runs $199,900 CAD, around $146,000.
Meanwhile, across the Atlantic, the MTZ Belarus 82.3 can be had for the equivalent of $50k.
It's a simple machine for a simpler time, so obviously doesn't meet any emissions regulations. But at least in my region farmers went to great lengths to acquire them - even illegally. By the time the tractors are confiscated, they'll more than pay for themselves.
This but for cars
This but for TVs
This but for robot vacuums
This but for security cameras
This but for baby monitors
This but for washing machines
This but for fridges
Anyone else got any requests?
I’m genuinely confused. Why not buy an entry level kubota?
I guess the startup is selling low tech stuff in the 100-200hp range, but you start getting computers and stuff at that point with the conventional manufacturers?
They certainly sell sub 100 hp / $100K tractors that are reliable and low tech, so I’m struggling to see any differentiator except the engine size.
Also, half price is an odd claim. The Kubota M6 looks comparable to the $130K option from the startup, but starts at $100K.
I can’t read the article because cloudflare is blocking iOS now, apparently.
Also, for the small-medium range, a BEV or plugin / serial hybrid powertrain would be a game changer. Lots of low end weight, infinite torque at low speeds, and no hearing protection required to operate it. Also, it wouldn’t get as wicked hot in the summer for the operator, nor would it dump diesel exhaust everywhere.
A low tech version of that would be compelling (similar to slate).
Edit: they could even use standard mounts electrical for the generator and common battery packs, so if either powerplant blew up, it’d be a bolt-in replacement. The actual electric motors probably would never blow out.
That's how you deal with vendor lock in.
These farmers have more balls than most Apple users.
I bought a chinese mini excavator. It is super simple and I am sure things will break on it (I already had a qc issue with the fuel gauge) but I don't fear things breaking. With the competitors the dealer had to service everything. With the chinese one I text someone on whatsapp, diagnose remotely, and they send me a part. Honestly I like this model more. If you have a lot of money the dealer is great.
That's what I always want -- all of my appliances should look like the ones we got in the 90s/2000s. Some Chinese companies should take this niche or maybe not-niche field, sell at a premium, which hopefully is still cheaper than smart ones.
I helped build the e-commerce site for Tilmor[0] when they were starting up. They build easily repairable mechanical farming equipment for small to medium sized farms with an emphasis on organic farming. It's a really interesting niche that I think will continue to grow. I'm 6 years out from working for them and still think of their products fondly.
I don't understand how different this startup is from established, non-John Deere segments, like MTZ? Definitely low tech and around the same price as the startup: https://www.mtzequipment.com/products/tractors
"From whence this barbarous animus?" tweeted the technologist from the cauldron in which he boiled.
I think the trend we are seeing with tractors and cars is a circular one that the industry isn't ready for: we moved from pure mechanical machines to "mechanical + some electronics," and we are currently in the "some mechanical + more electronics" phase. But the next logical step for longevity is a return to "mostly mechanical" interfaces powered by open standards.
The problem isn't the presence of electronics. It's the use of electronics as a proprietary layer to gatekeep physical hardware. When a tractor becomes a "software platform," the farmer loses the ability to perform basic maintenance because of DRM and encrypted ECU handshakes.
We need to treat the electronics as a component of the tool, not the owner of the tool. If the software is the only thing preventing a mechanical machine from functioning, that's not a feature but a defect
If the original article is of interest to you, this project might be too:
Shows the attractiveness of “right to repair.” People want to own their stuff and not be forever beholden to the manufacturer.
Love to see repairability prioritized.
The HN crowd would enjoy the Global Village Construction Kit's work on an open-source tractor
https://www.opensourceecology.org/gvcs/
https://www.opensourceecology.org/portfolio/tractor/
https://www.opensourceecology.org/microtractor-workshop/
And their other open source machines they deemed "critical for civilization"
Is part of the appeal due to the fact that being remanufactured engines they don't need modern emissions control, aka Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF)? Farmers hate DEF.
I wish someone would do this for the pickup truck market. Lol, like make a truck for people that actually want to use it just for hauling things. Kind of like trucks used to be in the 1960's and 1970's. Not the modern ones that are more like a luxury SUV that happens to have a tiny truck bed in the back.
Folks focus on the impact simplicity has on the customer, but it's also worth noting the impact it has on the manufacturer. With a simple product they get a simple business.
- Simple warranty support - No deep bench of customer support staff - No complex financing - Straightforward sales process
Heck, even the website is bare bones.
Can I invest? I have no need for a no-tech tractor but I would love to support a real challenger to John Deere’s near complete monopoly.
Part of the story why we can‘t feel the hypothetical productivity gains of the last century is that certain goods became 1. more expensive and 2. last shorter. This movement (as mentioned in the tractor example) might be the result of people realizing this: what drives GDP (expensive throw away crap) might not always drive wealth.
Ha - “Wilson saw the gap and drove a tractor through it.”
I love that the 5.9 lives on
ursa-ag.com For (a little bit) more info
Reduce, reuse, recycle.
Before buying new, aren't there enough tractors from the 60s, 70s, 80s that are still salvageable?
The general aviation world has Cessna 172s from the 50s still going strong; why buy new?
This is a great initiative. However, I feel that "no-tech" shouldn't be a target and that isn't necessarily good. Ex. Precision tech helps reduce operator fatigue and increases efficiency with respect to equipment operation time and material used.
This isn't to say that tech can't be shoved in every other panel on the tractor - but hope this drives Big companies towards considering where tech is necessary and where it's not.
Good, I wish them every success.
I hope this sets the trend for cars too.
I would happily buy a new car with a 2000s Japanese engine and no tech.
I think it may have been here, where there was a story about a Toyota factory that only makes one car: a barebones, white SUV.
It’s brought by all the NPOs in the world.
It’s simple, rugged, easy to repair, and cheap. You see them, all the time, on TV.
This is great, if there is some real competition, then we can see John Deere will have to figure out how to compete. Either with lower prices or less lock in.
Related: "Deere settles US right-to-repair lawsuit with $99 million fund, repair commitments"
https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/boards-policy-regulat...
I love this so much. We need this for personal automobiles.
Love a Cummins. The Bosch plunger pump is like a mini-me engine on the side of the block!
This is the same reason why I switched from riding a car to riding bicycles. Easy to get parts. Easily repairable. No electronics.
This feels like a great opportunity for Canada. We have tremendous need for tractors. The skillset for automotive/machinery and farming. A need for domestic industry development. Offers another non-American option. These don’t suffer as much from tech supply chain pains by not being full of electronics.
This is the way. The number one metric for any tool is how much you care TRUST it, and the number two metric for any tool is how quickly you can fix it when it breaks, and number three is how easy it is to understand and modify for your particular purpose.
I grew up in farm. and I can tell you. this is actually a good deal! I really good deal!!!
You don't really need that much tech in a tractor. you just want to make it work, and make it last long enough.
Sounds like Gliders (truck) though those are usually to avoid emissions requirements.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glider_%28automobiles%29#Glide...
Wouldn’t a “no-tech tractor “ be a mule? They are selling tractors based on internal combustion technology.
A friend is an organic farmer in Saskatchewan who has been buying specifically older mechanical only tractors; after a heart attack that will require him to sell off his farm, he’s finding lots of potential buyers.
Up until a year ago I was regularly using a Massy Fergusson 135 [0] (Perkins Diesel version), made sometime in the 1970s. It was wonderful! So amazing to drive and use. Clunky and heavy, but you really really felt like you were using a machine. In low gears, if you put you foot down on the accelerator the engine would roar, and your speed would barely change!
And there was no fancy technology in it at all. If I was in the forest and had forgotten the key, I'd just reach behind the dashboard and hot-wire it. The air filter was basically a shisha-pipe that bubbled the incoming air through wire wool and engine oil.
Its fuel gauge didn't work either. You just had to take a look in the tank, or quickly react as soon as the revs started dropping. I ran it dry a few times and had to sit there with a spanner in one hand and YouTube into the other, while trying to bleed all the fuel lines. But they were all on the outside of the vehicle, which made it comparatively easy I imagine.
I've never actually driven a modern tractor, so don't know how it compares. I imagine the clutch is easier on the knees these days!
Anyway, this just felt like the place to share this.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massey_Ferguson_135