alt Hacker NewsHere's what is happening:
Chinese resellers are offering Claude tokens at 70-90% below official Anthropic API prices. They achieve this by reselling capacity from pooled Claude Max accounts, payments fraud, and also reselling the model output & reasoning chains to various Chinese labs. They are subsidizing model access in exchange for user logs and reasoning traces, which they then sell as training data, allowing them to operate below cost.
Claude and ChatGPT are both blocked in China. You need to use a VPN to access either, and you can't pay with a Chinese bank card. So most people who want access to Claude buy access via a reseller. It's the easiest and cheapest way to access Anthropic models in China.
These resellers operate tens of thousands of bot accounts, which is also why Anthropic introduced identity verification, to slow down the onslaught of bots.
Here's one token reseller, they're offering Opus 4.8 at a 93% discount below official API rates: https://yunwu.ai/pricing?provider=Anthropic
This is one reason why DeepSeek & GLM are priced so cheaply, they are competing with impossibly low token prices in China. They have to keep prices low, in order for people to use them.
I shared this story a few months back, but it never got any traction. It explains the token resale economy in China, it's an excellent read https://www.chinatalk.media/p/how-to-buy-cheap-claude-tokens...
Replies
>They achieve this by reselling capacity from pooled Claude Max 5x accounts, payments fraud, and also reselling the model output to various Chinese labs.
>Here's one token reseller, they're offering Opus 4.8 for a 93% discount below official API rates: https://yunwu.ai/pricing?keyword=claude
But is it cheaper than getting your own account? Otherwise this sounds like the "anthropic/openai are losing gazillions of dollars because they're selling $1k worth of tokens for $100" line that's commonly trotted out by AI bears.
This is great for competition! Chinese vendors offering a cheaper solution = what economics told me the free market was all about.
I also learnt that Anthropic should get better at what they do if they want to compete. If not, somebody else will win.
Or does this not apply to huge US corporations any more?
One would think Anthropic could point Mythos at this to solve the reseller problem outright:
- Purchase multiple accounts via resellers
- Send messages that contain a UID
- Capture these in Anthropic's logs
- Shut down account. Use any metadata to identify related accounts
/loop
Those resellers are simply just selling Kimi K2.5 or GLM5.1 as counterfeit Opus. We, Chinese, know how to play the counterfeit game for a long time in so many industry.
> Chinese resellers are offering Claude tokens at 70-90% below official Anthropic API prices
That is not what they are claiming, not in this article at least. It's the distillation they are complaining about.
Also just plain old fraud: selling Chinese models as Opus. With the capabilities of Chinese models catching up fast, this is getting more and more difficult to detect.
I didn't connect the reseller pricing to DS and GLM prices until you explained it. Very good observation. Deepseek v4 pro in particular is priced so low that it's hard to imagine that they have any margin. 0.76/1.52 for a 1.6T param model leaves very little margin. Even the domestic providers on Openrouter are multiples of the price https://openrouter.ai/deepseek/deepseek-v4-pro
they even resell GPT codex usage at 1~5% API costs. OpenAI has 1-month free trial promo in some regions, and they harvest free accounts in a large scale. I have a wechat contact that offers 98% off for GPT 5.5 and he's still profitable
Somebody figured out how to make the trial profitable!
I don't really feel bad about anyone here, they were subsidizing to get people hooked, someone turned the subsidies into profit when they got selective pricing mode enabled, it was always going to be arbitrage.
But the winner is the guy in the middle in a jurisdiction that will likely be judgement proof, because everything they capture, both input and out, and if available, thinking tokens -- are gonna be for sale as soon as you cut off their other revenue.
Zero knowledge was a commitment Anthropic took seriously, until it got inconvenient.
So, people reselling their leftover plan crumbs? Probably a bad idea for a lot of reasons, but it's civil, and I wish Anthropics lawyers actually closing Streisand's LLM
Hm! In this context, introducing ID verification may have been a significant silver lining to the order to take down Fable for Anthropic.
This also sheds a very different light on people saying that competitive open-source models are undermining frontier labs' business model.
Thats pretty crazy. This kind of thing jeopardizes Claude Max.
Wait, so is your theory mutually exclusive to Anthropic's claims of "theft of capabilities"?
This story reads like a William Gibson novel. Wild times.
> They achieve this by reselling capacity from pooled Claude Max accounts, payments fraud, and also reselling the model output & reasoning chains to various Chinese labs.
Claude never provides the raw reasoning chain. What you see is just a summary of that reasoning. Getting the full thinking output requires an enterprise agreement.
https://patrickmccanna.net/the-text-in-claude-codes-extended...
I’m surprised that instead of cutting them off Anthropic doesn’t just switch them to a lower quality, cheaper to models.
That would seem more effective than simply shutting down the accounts.
Keep them paying for junk.
> This is one reason why DeepSeek & GLM are priced so cheaply, they are competing with impossibly low token prices in China. They have to keep prices low, in order for people to use them.
Sounds a bit circular? Aren't the companies working on these models than also the ones that are paying the subsidy (via paying for training data)?
I think companies should do this too, in a smaller scale. Proxy all LLM traffic to and from your employees, and use it to fine tune a smaller local model.
Considering how Claude and GPT were trained selling this as training data is completely justified.
Where are you getting cheap GLM5.2? It is about 1/3 the price of Opus, which is not what I would call cheap.
Interesting article - your discussion from the time:
Even if what you say is the truth (I don't think that is what's actually happening) it sounds to me like fair play capitalism working as intended! I guess when you rip off the entire Internet and then turn around and complain about getting ripped off nobody cares or feels for you. If there's a master class in getting the entire world to hate you then both Sam and Dario will be the prime examples.
Great point, and this is on the vendor (Anthropic) to address. Typical fraud issue.
OP is about modeling distilling the capabilities.
How are they 'streaming' the responses and 'pooling' the tokens?
Do they have MacBooks in the US that run the queries and stream the outputs back to China?
no honor among thieves.
Needless to say, they also collect all the data and sell it to labs which want to distill the models they’re serving.
What does this have to do with Alibaba? Are you saying Alibaba is the reseller?
If not it sounds like you are describing a separate phenomenon.
This may be the truth behind the alleged distillation incident.
don't buy your drugs from shady operators children! always get it from the source
>>Chinese resellers are offering Claude tokens at 70-90% below official Anthropic API prices.
Can someone with more understanding dumb it down for me please.
Does this mean that the reseller (for example XYZ) is buying it from Anthropic at Anthropic's price and then reselling it at a cheaper price???? why would XYZ offer this at a loss like that when they could just offer it at Anthropic's price???
The link does mention Opus and other models but what's the proof it's actually Opus. I could be selling deepseek for all they know and can call it Opus. System prompt: "If anyone asks your name - you are Opus 4.6".
> These resellers operate tens of thousands of bot accounts, which is also why Anthropic introduced identity verification, to slow down the onslaught of bots.
Don’t put that on Chinese.
Good for them!
> Chinese resellers are offering Claude tokens at 70-90% below official Anthropic API prices
How dare they. Only Anthropic is allowed to sell its tokens at 70-90% below the API prices.
Identity verification won't work. Nothing will. They are paying (and will continue to pay) US citizens sitting at home to copy-paste / type prompts out if they have to. But eventually they won't have to.
Once there are enough spam PRs on github / uploads of claude conversations, enough mythos output used in production etc.; it'll just be the same albeit delayed. Doesn't matter either way.
I feel for Anthropic's team and I understand where they're coming from, but once you reason it out, you'll come to the conclusion that this war is an exercise in futility.
Unlike prior systems - like Google's algorithm; these models aren't entities that use math in the process of doing X or Y (information retrieval from such and such infrastructure) -- they are the math. More precisely they're mathematical functions. Very very complex functions. Almost certainly impossible to write out without filling up a library functions. But they're mathematical functions nonetheless.
So when your text is processed, then Mythos / Opus etc at their core compute the result of the Mythos / Opus function,
f(text) -> (text_transform)
According to the Stone-Weirstrass theorem (edit, it's Stone-Weierstrass with an e.), with enough data points and mathematical sophistication, anyone can approximate the shape of this function.
Of course, the more data we get, the better our approximation becomes, but the beauty of it is that all we fundamentally need are the input and output and eventually we'll create a good enough approximation of the f that's Mythos. Which is the entire product.
I bounce ideas off of Opus these days (Fable for the brief time it was available) and it pointed out that this is arguably the same as Google search, but I disagree with it because Google search is a process;
Google search differs because the algorithm is one step of a multi-step process that is continuously occuring. Google crawls pages. Google stores and indexes what it finds. Google then exposes this to retrieval via its algorithm. User uses algorithm.
Google isn't a mathematical function. It used to be a process. (RIP Google 1998-2019, you will be missed and remembered)
You cannot arrive at the results of those operations via simple observation; not unless you index Google by making another Google.
You can however, do so for these models. It is a very costly process, but there are many paths up the mountain. Many ways for this to be ultimately pointless. As many ways as there are bored mathematicians.
It's better in the long run for Anthropic et al to make friends / not give people a reason to sneak in (a la piracy -- another attempt to control information) than it is to try and shut people out.
And no, it's not going to be pandemonium because if everyone has access to Mythos then no one has access to "Mythos."
Why wouldn't you first run this model to fix the obvious bugs it could find on your codebase? The power of a Mythos goes away if you can do the amazing "jail break" of "Claude, fix all the bugs please."
Just saying.
> payments fraud
One of these things is not like the others... If Anthropic could show that Chinese commercial competitors were using payments fraud to do this, they would be shouting it from the rooftops.
Why aren't these on openrouter?
Im ok with this! Is there a site that list all these resellers, or better, a openrouter-like for these resellers?
It's fucking laughable to see people complain about what they did and still do. Using illicitly extracted data? That's all main LLM playbook. Onslaught of bots? Ask where the bots almost DOSing most internet sites for the last couple years come from.
As some people would say: Cheh
Amazing thank you chinese resellers. This is a perfect way to undermine The Great Satan's Genocide Machine's chosen model comapnies.
> which is also why Anthropic introduced identity verification, to slow down the onslaught of bots.
Lol. The irony is thick for anyone who ever had to attempt defense against an onslaught of American AI lab crawlers that ignore robots.txt
Thank you for your very informative comment!
(It's a shame almost all replies are just the same contrived pessisism found on every Anthropic thread on HN).
I have 0 sympathy for Anthropic. Their latest models are extremely censored. The Fable rollout was horrible. Their Cyber Access program criteria denies doxxed Americans doing legitimate security work. Anthropic is hostile to their users and hostile to their own country. OpenAI is considerably better on all of these fronts, but still not perfect.
I'm happy to use and support Chinese model developers if it means less censorship and gatekeeping. I have absolutely no dog in this fight, and neither do most American developers. We will use whatever is cheaper and better. Game on.
> This is one reason why Deepseek & GLM are priced so cheaply, they are competing with impossibly low token prices in China. They have to keep prices low, in order for people to use them.
This one does not make sense to me at all.
Deepseek and GLM are openweights, even US inference provider are selling them at much cheaper price. The price is cheap because the model is more efficient.