alt Hacker NewsI agree wholeheartedly with the argument raised in this github issue, but I think people are wrong to be skeptical about the concept of a government-issued age verification app.
Thing is, the status quo is absolutely worse. My 13yo son likes making Roblox games. Suddenly, some months ago, Roblox made a change where you’re not allowed to share your games with friends unless you do “age verification”, apparently in some misguided bid to beat the pedos. In Roblox’ case, this means sharing your 3D likeness with some sketchy American business who pinky promises to delete said data after. I don’t want random American tech companies to have my kids’ biometric info like that, able to sell it to whoever asks. Nor my passport or anything like that.
I’d much prefer a government supplied app, that’s guaranteed to protect my privacy, and has no business incentive to sell my data, where I can see what data about me (or my son) is shared with Roblox or whichever sleazy business wants it.
Obviously this only makes sense if the government is less sleazy than the average American tech business, but for all its faults, I think that currently holds for the EU (and most of its member countries). There’s plenty precedent of EU governments doing privacy-conscious apps right (the Dutch covid tracking app comes to mind).
I hope they see reason and fix this here issue.
Replies
Government issued versus corporate issued age verification is a false dichotomy. There are other options, such as refusing games that require them. (Yes, we do have a teen, and yes we did exactly that with Roblox.)
I hear you on the overall privacy issues related to age verification with US Corps. My concern with government registries of personal information is related to things like:
- Netherlands, WWII: The Dutch civil registry meticulously recorded religion. It’s a major reason ~75% of Dutch Jews were killed, the highest rate in occupied Western Europe (vs ~25% in France, where records were poorer).
- US, Japanese internment: The Census Bureau provided block-level data on Japanese Americans in 1942 despite confidentiality guarantees; 2007 research showed individual names and addresses were shared too.
- Rwanda, 1994: Belgian colonial administrators had put ethnicity (Hutu/Tutsi) on national ID cards in the 1930s. Sixty years later those cards were the primary tool at genocide checkpoints.
There’s loads more. Europe may be safe now so it feels safe to give government this information. However, as shown in all the instances above, the information was collected for one reason and used for a wholly different reason when times changed.
Who knows what kinds of ethnicities, beliefs, behaviors or personal histories will be the focus of future regimes? It could be Roblox users, HN commenters, people who religiously repost x.com links as xcancel.com ones, anything. Whatever it is, they will have access to all the data on any system we allow them to record. This isn’t even a totally made up hypothetical from far away places, multiple governments in Europe were doing this kind of thing just decades ago. Historically speaking, we are all currently living in an unusually peaceful era, that will likely be temporary for many of us.
You can (and should) be mad at the government and at Roblox at the same time.
Also, don't use Roblox, you can freely share games made with PICO-8, Löve, Godot, Rpgmaker, Game maker and the like, no need to go to the hell scape that is Roblox and its dark patern and locked down ecosystem.
We have had the need to prove age for hundreds of years. To buy alcohol. To drive a car. To vote. We depend on government-issued documents to do this. Not sure why anyone would really expect this to change just because it's online now.
> Roblox made a change where you’re not allowed to share your games with friends unless you do “age verification”
My son had a similar "making games" interests and I just showed him the Godot engine. Roblox bosses are doing you a favor. Act now :D
What you’re proposing works only if the government is always trustworthy and abiding by the rules. But there has been cases that ICE agents in US was able to track down people from their social media posts and in the past Nazis used the address registration lists to track down Jews for deportation to concentration camps.
We don’t know what EU would become in 5 to 10 years in the future, and I would rather not have any identification information about me or family being stored by a government body or any other party that can track/link me or my family members
> a government supplied app, that’s guaranteed to protect my privacy
This is a bit of a 64,000 euro question, though. Look very closely at what the government exemptions for GDPR are.
It doesn't have to be an either or dichotomy. For example, you could pass laws that make it illegal for an online game to demand age verification, identification, biometrics, etc. The main reason for any of this are some corporate attorneys justifying their own salaries based on "what if" and scaremongering. Regardless of how much personal information they succeed at demanding at this stage, or how [in]effective it is at addressing their claimed problems, they will be back again pushing for even more until they're actually told a hard "no".
> a government supplied app, that’s guaranteed to protect my privacy
[citation needed]
> this means sharing your 3D likeness with some sketchy American business who pinky promises to delete said data after. I don’t want random American tech companies to have my kids’ biometric info like that, able to sell it to whoever asks. Nor my passport or anything like that.
Actually the market leader app for scanning faces and documents is an Israeli company. They encourage to use mobile for scanning, for your convenience. They promise they delete the data. Yeah, if they're lying you can sue them in Israel.
Then get your kid off Roblox. I promise you that Roblox exploits more children in a single day than all sex offenders put together do in a year.
Why is pedophilia such a problem on Roblox? It's because they heavily advertise towards children and one of the fastest ways for children to make money is asking their parents, then next is prostitution. Roblox is uniquely bad because they heavily advertise both products and the "self-made entrepreneur" image to children.
Putting the blame on nebulous "predators" when the system itself is clearly to blame is the very tacit Roblox relies on. Look at vehicular manslaughter are drunk and distracted drivers solely to blame for deaths? Clearly not since there are just as many drunks and phones in Europe as in the US. When the system creates more predators than exist otherwise then you know it needs to change.
If your son likes making games keep him on Godot. Your job as a parent is to find or build a good distribution system. you can see if he is generally interested or if he was pressured by an exploitative system grooming him into pumping out slop for the trough. Age verification is going to make the platform more exploitative in the business sense. Both in that it legitimizes bad practices and lets Roblox target their exploitative practices more effectively.
Funny you use Netherlands as a good example, considering that famously, their existing unusually thorough registry was super helpful for the Nazis rounding up jews later.
I don't think it's Godwin's Law when you are so spot on, exactly describing the worst case.
Trusting government... Do you even know any history? Like any? How many more atrocities, genocides, mass murders, lies, fraud, and many, many other crimes must these governments commit and also try to hide before you learn your lesson?
I'm just gobsmacked, and your e the highest up vote... HN is simply full of government skills and I'm not even allowed to point that out. Crazy stuff.
The "app" could be a good solution, if it didn't require attested Android or iOS. It could, for example, have me plug my ID chip into my GNU/Linux system and expose it with a standard protocol. That would be no problem. The problem is that they do not want such a way.
In any case, I think that age gating would not be needed if the platforms were regulated to remove addictive recommendation algorithms.
It's isreali as well: https://www.404media.co/id-verification-service-for-tiktok-u...
As a purely tactical measure, we use the same older person (me) for age verification for all family members - zero failures so far and it poisons the well.