alt Hacker NewsNetHack 5.0.0
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> The build-time "yacc and lex"-based level compiler, the "yacc and lex"-based dungeon compiler, and the quest text file processing previously done by NetHack's "makedefs" utility, have been replaced with Lua text alternatives that are loaded and processed by the game during play.
This is very likely a good choice for multiple reasons, but it's truly the end of an era. (NetHack predates Lua, which has been around since 1993.) Lex and yacc are dead, long live lex and yacc!
I can highly recommend the 3D client especially because it works almost everywhere, hope it will be updated for 5.0.0 soon
Wow, what a delightful surprise! I'm a huge NetHack fan and have been waiting a long time for the official 3.7 release before switching over to it. I've been a 3.6 holdout, haha.
AFAIK, the backend has moved a lot of map generation logic (and exposure of other data) to a Lua API, which is quite exciting as something for people to play with in tooling, forks, mods, etc.
Minor spoilers below:
I heard about some great balance adjustments that help to mitigate over-reliance on a single kit, such as making certain extrinsic resistances (e.g. wearing rings) stronger than their intrinsic counterparts, which adds to the decision-making in choosing what to equip. Another change I'm really excited for is the unicorn horn no longer being usable for "restore ability", so ability-draining effects (of which there are many) are a more significant threat (they were effectively zero threat until now).
Also very cool to hear the quest is now possible to do early (despite being a Bad Idea) as that has great implications for speedrunning or "fewest turns" runs.
Can't wait to dive in!
Aw yeah! I’d love to see somebody from the DevTeam talk about this, or literally anything else they might want to talk about, at the Roguelike Celebration in October (https://www.roguelike.club/), if anyone has a connection and could encourage them to consider it. It’s a super lovely community-run online event, and everyone would be thrilled. (I was a volunteer for the first few annual events, as a person who played about a zillion games of Nethack as a kid.)
As an avid Spelunky player(still trying to complete the Cosmic Ocean...), I recently decided to explore some of Spelunky's roots, and set out to learn Nethack, and fell in love with the game. After a few weeks of dying repeatedly, perusing the wiki, and watching the Ascending in Nethack Overexplained series on youtube(highly recommended), I managed to ascend a valkyrie. Planning on trying a harder role soon. It's amazing how tense it can be despite the turn based nature of the game.
I do like the nerfs in this release. Making excalibur harder to get for Valkyries is a good one, as well as nerfing the unicorn horn. The run where I ascended felt a bit too easy at times. But of course valkyrie will still be by far the easiest role, I think. I bet I'll be stuck for quite a while trying to ascend anything else.
Some notable changes in 5.0.0 (spoilers abound):
If a bag of holding explodes (e.g. due to putting a wand of cancellation in it), most of its items are scattered rather than lost
Amnesia no longer causes you to forget maps
Unicorn horns no longer restore lost attributes
Valkyrie ascensions (considered the easiest) are harder: chance to receive Excalibur when dipping a longsword in a fountain is decreased if not a knight, valkyries no longer start with a longsword, valkyrie doesn't gain Stealth until level 3
You can't displace pets into polymorph traps easily to get a super pet
You can apply $ to flip a coin
First impression: it has a tutorial, which should actually help increase the player base quite a bit.
It comes with some movement quality of life (e.g. moving into a door opens it, moving into an obviously dangerous thing requires confirmation).
If you enable the option, there's color coding of health (green -> full), burden level, and states like poisoning, which I think is new too.
You can filter out messages like "you have displaced your pet".
Amazing.
I was never any good at Nethack. I think I just get impatient. I could regularly get a bit past Medusa but anything past that definitely involved save scumming. I was always a little jealous of the folks who could ascend regularly. But not jealous enough to, like, do anything about it.
Nethack's always been amazing for the feeling of "the devs thought of everything." I wonder how well that feeling holds up today.
As someone who hasn’t played for 20 years+ seems weird that they worry about spoilers in the release notes - back when I played literally the only way to learn certain game mechanics etc (eg the e-word) was to read the source code, and when you did that you found a bunch of things that were incredibly overpowered to the point of basically trivializing a lot of the game. (It’s been a long while but I seem to remember discovering very easy ways to find very powerful weapons and armour).
It seems to me that for what I was after at the time, DCSS is actually a better nethack than nethack is in that the game is more discoverable and fair and less arbitrary.
I've been playing on and off for 15 years, sometimes daily for months on end. The deepest I managed to go is level 11, and as soon as I enter the Big Room, I die. In fact, I went past level 8 for the first time this year. I've read all of the NetHack wiki back and forth. I don't have the slightest idea what I'm doing wrong or how to improve.
I'm 46 now, and if I continue that pace, I'll be dead before I even reach the bottom, let alone ascend.
List of changes:
https://github.com/NetHack/NetHack/blob/NetHack-5.0/doc/fixe...
I played Nethack quite a bit as a teen but was never patient enough to ascend. Always YASD.
I revisited the game a few years ago & was happy to realize I had, in the meantime, grown the necessary patience. Ascending felt great.
The depth of NetHack is surprising. They have a saying - the devs thought of everything. If you can tolerate the mechanics, the emergent dungeon delving stories are interesting.
Dungeon crawling as a tourist with a camera, rubbing a lamp and it’s a magic lamp that gives you a wish, kicking a fountain and bringing out a succubus who steals your equipment and teleports away, finding a scroll of genocide and accidentally genociding yourself because you forgot you were polymorphed, robbing shopkeepers blind with your pet dog, scratching a magic word in the ground at your it feet with your sword because you’re outnumbered to scare the enemies away, looting past dead bodies with legendary gear only to find one of the unidentified amulets was a cursed amulet of strangulation and now it’s welded to you and cant be taken off. You die. Play again?
The last time I played, it was with a build that had visual tiles instead of ascii which were kinda retro fun. Hope to see a similar build on 5.0 one day.
> make unique swallowing monsters (Juiblex) resist magical digging from inside
Oh noooooooooo... yeah that's fair.
Lots of overdue gameplay changes here, really. I was something of an expert player 20 years ago, my best ascenscion being Atheist/Genoless/Wishless with no pet to boot. It seems a lot has changed. I see fixes on this list for things that bothered me then. :)
And here I thought I was safe from losing months to escapism like I did in the 2000s (learned to ascend with every class though!)
Anyone know why the skip over 4.x, or have any insight into how much play has changed as well as infrastructure?
Wow. Did not expect this when I logged in to HN today. It's 1998 all over again for me. :)
I must... resist...
(I probably play to finish ever 5 years or so)
It occurs to me that procedurally generated dungeons would be amazing with LLMs. Imagine every level with the sophistication of nethack's "special" levels. I hope someone out there is working on it!
Wow! The inclusion of Lua bindings seems like a major step forward. This should make modding much more accessible.
There's been a lot of nice quality of life changes in the 3.7 builds (which has now become 5.0.0) that make going back to the older versions a bit painful.
Also some pretty major gameplay and balance changes, some of which are pretty controversial. But overall, I think that it's a big improvement, and although I don't necessarily agree with all the changes it certainly makes the mid and late game a lot more interesting and varied (not to mention dangerous) than it was in 3.6.7.
It's related to Angband, not Nethack, and the content is not as easy to view these days, but the Angband Comic strip is a true clult classic in niche humor. http://angband.calamarain.net/
Wow! Wonder how they test all the releases.
> The source release includes all the code for the above versions plus code for the systems listed below.
Windows 8.x/10/11
Linux
macOS
AmigaDOS
Windows CE
OS/2
Unix (*BSD, System V, Solaris, HP-UX, ...)
BeOS
VMSBack when I was on undergrad I sometimes managed to get to the castle, but never very consistently. Opening NAO was one of my go to ways of dealing with spare time but I haven't played the game much since. This is wild tho, never imagined we would get to version 5
How would you compare these to Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup (DCSS) or Tales of Majeyal (ToME).?
I play tons of both games but am having difficulty settling in nethack
Great! An excuse to play again.
My favourite way to play it is using `ssh [email protected]`. Don't even have to install it. Though it seems it hasn't received this update yet.
Last update was 1171 days ago.
Nethack is one of the best open source projects.
Here's a good report on a completely unspoiled playthrough which was an interesting read.
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.games.roguelike.nethack/c/wc...
I played this game a bit back in 3.4.3 times.
It's been great on long-haul flights to play on the laptop. Doesn't demand your battery.
ASCII all the way. In the dim and distant past there was a game Mazigs on the ZX81, a maze monster game, using ZX81 graphics.
Perhaps using those graphics for Nethack would be interesting. I think we could remove FAST mode.
Generally with such ideas several people thought and implemented it 20 years ago.
Glad to hear it received a major update. Nethack on Slackware Linux was my childhood and has a special place in me. It taught me how to really use computers. Time to compile the source code again, folks.
I wonder if moving to Lua makes it easier to Hack/Mod? Maybe more easily create variations?
Ah, trip down the memory lane... I guess I have to try to recall now how the game was played. There is a great likelihood last time was more than 25 years ago.
So, if I understand correctly, the goal is to enjoy dying thousands of times?
Or, to give up and read online how to play?
Or some of both?
What happened to version 4? Looks like last release was 3.6.7.
Never ascended but my main strategy revolved around something fixed in 3.7. Bummed me out so much that I stopped playing.
Now though. Maybe I'll go back to it
My Nethack story is that in the 1990s I once got fired from a job for downloading NetHack because, I kid you not, it hit some Web log filter for the word "hack". I got dragged into a meeting with three log entries in yellow highlighter on a dot matrix printout showing the word "hack". Expalanations that it was a computer game went nowhere.
I don't think I ever legitimately completed NetHack. I think the best I did was getting to the elemental planes. Later I read about some of the strats and kit you aim for, which I think was a mistake because it kinda ruined it for me.
I'm honestly surprised this is still going on. Kudos to anyone still keeping this going. I'd kinda assumed it was forever stuck in 3.7? I see there are 3100 bugfixes and changes. I really wish there was a summary of major changes. Maybe there are none and it's just a backend revamp plus bugfixes that they bumped the major version on.
NetHack ... so many great memories of time sunk ;) To click or not to click, that is the question.
I used to play NetHack on my laptop when my then-girlfiend and I had to watch her baby sister and she'd like to sit and watch. One day we had to go to her birthday party, and because we were in our twenties and unenthused about going to a kid's costume party we got a roll of duct tape on the way there and put @ symbols on our shirts and made her a birthday card on printer paper rolled up with random letters written on the outside. She absolutely loved it but nobody else got it, and her friends parents thought we were fucking weirdos. We thought about bringing wine to quaff, probably better we didn't, lol.
Only Amiga makes it possible. ;)
In the early days of NetHack, spoilers were not so widely known (the web didn't exist yet) and save scumming was more difficult* (few people had admin access on systems that could run it) compared to now.
I wonder how many players today will resist those temptations now that they're not only trivial to discover and execute, but also widely accepted in gaming culture.
I urge new players to resist spoilers and cheats for as long as they can. This game is full of wonderful details and interactions that are not at all obvious, and they make it exceptionally rewarding to progress when you do so by discovering them on your own.
Of course, my recommended approach will mean dying a lot. If you keep a journal of things you do and notice in each play-through, your eulogy will be more useful. :)
Take heart: Starting over means you're likely to encounter new things in the levels you've seen before, so it won't be boring.
...
*I don't recall why the save files seemed elusive back then. Perhaps the system on which I played put them someplace obscure that I lacked either the motivation or the knowledge to find. Or perhaps they were kept out of reach of the player by unix permissions, requiring setuid for the game to read them. Either way, I'm glad, because the challenge and mystery of playing with only what the game provided made it all the more interesting.
Can you name a game that is older than NetHack and still in active development? I can't.
Been playing for hack since Fred Fish #7 1987. Still have never reached the amulet.
This is going to seem either beyond idiotic (which it may be) or a troll (which it is not) but: is this game actually fun? Like, if you have zero nostalgia or anything, and your evaluation of it is based solely on what it is, is it something a person in their 20s would want to play? Is it fun in a different way than, say, Dwarf Fortress is fun? (Haven't played DF but I think I understand why people do.)
Would really love informed takes on this.
Waiting for VR
I've been playing this game since the mid 1980s since it was called Hack. I've only ascended twice, the last time being last year, and it required a heavy amount of cheating/saving.
I guess the rest of this weekend is already accounted for.
I still play Slashem daily, but vanilla Nethack it's a must because of Pratchett.
Seems each NetHack release it gets harder and harder :)
But I since we are in May I would guess it will be part of junethack:
I cannot get into hardfought.org right now, but nethack.alt seems to be available. I can see alt.org is using nethack 3.6.7
looking forward to giving v5 a try.
:)
Anyone else using claude code to play nethack in a tmux pane?
[dead]
Last time I played, after many close calls, I finally got my hands on the amulet. Knowing that the journey back to daylight was likely to be at least as dangerous as the way I had come, I took a breath, saved, and set the game aside.
That was about seventeen years ago. I still have the save file. Today's announcement got me excited about the prospect of finally finishing my game, until I saw this:
> Existing saved games and bones files will not work with NetHack 5.0.0.
Drat.
Thankfully, NetHack is not one of those modern, commercial, online-only games that make it difficult to run old versions.
** SPOILER BELOW ** (in someone's reply to me)